Bo Mahr and Max Gottlieb are the cofounders of Ridge, a company at the intersection of environmentalism and finance. Ridge is more than just a national provider of sustainable digital banking services, it’s a community of individuals working to make better things and, in turn, make things better. Focused on the triple bottom line—people, planet, and prosperity— Bo and Max founded Ridge out of Appalachia with a commitment to uplift individuals, their communities, and their environments.
They accomplish this through superior banking services that offer industry-leading customer service, security, and features while leveraging the power of finance to provide much-needed support to water, land, and wildlife conservation. Bo and Max use their distinct skills and backgrounds to build a better, more sustainable future.
In this episode, Bo, Max, and Bryan discuss:
- Being kind to people even when you disagree with them
- How revitalization always starts from the ground up
- Speaking to the person in the room that nobody else is speaking to
Transcript:
Bryan Wish:
Bo, Max, welcome to The One Away Show.
Bo Mahr:
Thanks for having us.
Max Gottlieb:
Thank you so much Bryan.
Bryan Wish:
Yeah. So I am really excited to do this today. You both said that you were going to do two different moments, which definitely put me on my heels a little bit because we’ve never done this before. So what we’re going to set out to do is we’re going to be in the unknown like we are most days. So I think we’re in for a treat. I guess, I’m going to start with you Max. What is your one away moment And then, Bo, just feel free to share after.
Max Gottlieb:
Well, Bryan, thank you. I will say, it’s always a mistake to start with me first and I think that Bo will agree with that as I can sometimes be long-winded. My one way moment really is an afternoon in late September 2010, one of those evenings in fall where you start to pull out the long sleeve shirts and it gets a little cooler. And I was walking to class, it was my freshman year of college. First time I had lived outside of my native West Virginia, and I went to school in DC. And I was walking along and listening to music of course, as most college students do as they’re doing anything.
And I just had the realization that, not only did I miss home, like so many college students do, especially early on in your freshman year, but I had the realization that I wanted to sincerely return home, that I liked DC and I liked the exposure to different things and different people. It was fantastic. But being outside of my home in the mountains in West Virginia, I realized how much I cared for this place and how much I wanted to return to the sense of community that exists in places, not just like West Virginia, but all over the country in rural and mountainous areas.
And I distinctly remember, I went to class and I was sure I took studious notes and paying close attention to everything being discussed. But when I left class, I called my mother, who I’m thankful she’s been wonderful and always been a great guide. And I called her and I said, “Mom, I think I want to come home.” And she said, “Well, you don’t want to come home.” And I said, “No, no, I don’t want to come home from college, I think, I want to come home eventually.” And really, I had dreams before of going to DC and going to the city like so many people do, but I realized at that moment that it wasn’t for me. And we can talk more about how that brings us to today, but it was from that distinct moment that I remember where I was on campus and I remember the feeling that came over me that really cemented a sense of community and purpose for where I was going to go.
Bryan Wish:
Well, first off, Max, I think, to have that sense of self-awareness in college, where DC is a big place, coming from Appalachia and probably incredibly diverse perspectives and more opportunities to make more money out of the gate, but to know that so viscerally that you needed to go back home and that’s maybe what was meant for you is powerful and that you’ve listened to it, which we can get to. Thanks for kicking us off. Bo, why don’t you take the mic?
Bo Mahr:
Yeah. So I think my moment is more of a story of not having much self-awareness and then, slowly getting there. So my moment is far and away joining high school debate, which sounds super nerdy and ridiculous, but is also very nerdy and very ridiculous. But nothing, I think, has opened my eyes as much as high school debate did. And to give you a little context, I’m from a small town, rural Missouri. And what I knew for all of my life up until that point was in my immediate vicinity. That was pretty much it.
And then one day junior year, the high school debate coach had this brilliant, brilliant plan, the scheme that he would run every year. He’d look and say, “Who has decent grades? Let’s send all of those students a little semi personalized letter saying, “Hey, I think you’re a smart person, smart people join debate.”” And then, of course, you and your friends all have your ego stroked and you all join debate and because your friends are doing it, you do it because it’s junior high and one thing leads to another and you find yourself freshman year sitting in class learning about the death penalty policy in Sub-Saharan Africa, just the strangest things.
And as somebody who didn’t have that many friends or family who were not just politically engaged but kind of civically engaged and if they were, that wasn’t necessarily something that you would talk about with a lot of people and so, I didn’t really get this from anywhere else and so, I really came in just a clean slate. There were some really basic things about the world, about politics, about just human existence that I was missing.
And slowly, I think because I am a pretty competitive person, you go to these tournaments every weekend, you want to do well. Well, to do well, you have to dig in and know the details of all of this. And so, at some point, you just wake up and you know all the pros and cons on the death penalty and you’ve formed an opinion on it, you have formed an opinion on pretty much every hot-button issue of the day.
And what’s fascinating is these are things that most of your friends and family don’t really know about, but if they do, it’s definitely not something that you talk about in polite company and you’re out there talking about it every single weekend. But it’s great because you learn how to talk just to other humans about these things, to empathize with people. And I think that is really what the shift was is I walked in very, I’m the center of my own universe and then, at some point, woke up and just had empathy for the first time and it was just a wild ride. I don’t know when it hit, but at some point it did.
Bryan Wish:
So I can relate in a lot of ways to that. And I’m sure walking into a world where those are very politically motivated to help you form opinions, opening you up to the world. But having never done that, sure created a lot of discomfort in some ways. Right? You said lack of self-awareness at the beginning. Of course, you don’t know what you don’t know. So thank you for acknowledging that experience. I know you have taken steps in that direction in some ways and I’m sure extremely formative for you, which we can start to maybe see some things here.
So Max, when Bo said that, I mean, does that surprise you? I mean, he comes across so intelligent and thoughtful across the screen, yet he was just saying how he was a clueless youngster in high school. I mean, when Bo shared that, what came to mind for you?
Max Gottlieb:
What came to mind for me was that teacher must have been a bad judge of character, just generally, to write Bo a handwritten note. That’s the only thing that I keep thinking about, what a mistake.
No, it rings very true. Bo and I have a close working relationship and we are trying to do some good, new leading things in a space that maybe we’ll get into. But it rings very true that Bo is both opinionated, trust me, we have strong discussions, but is well reasoned and well researched. And frankly, although the opinions he develops, he holds very closely, it comes from a place of empathy and a place of trying to understand the completeness of what the situation is and to take in all of the information and do what he genuinely thinks is best with it. And that’s something I admire about Bo. He does it also in a much quieter way than I would do it, something I also admire about him. And so, I can absolutely see that.
Still, though, that teacher, Bo, can you give me a name? I need to write he or she a note and say, “Woo, you messed up.”
Bo Mahr:
We call him W.
Max Gottlieb:
There you go. Well, I’ll write a note to W. We can get his address after this.
Bryan Wish:
I hope he picks up a mug that has a W on it.
Bo Mahr:
Yeah, there you go.
Max Gottlieb:
That’s right.
Bryan Wish:
Well, I love what you said though, how maybe that experience, maybe I’m sure, it contributes and I don’t want to get here yet, but in the workplace where something happens or an event and Bo, you’re looking at it, “Hey let me look at this and process it, look at the complete view.” Max wants to take out the ax he used growing up to cut down trees and just pound away. So Carson is that for me in this situation. So Max, were aligned here.
Okay. So one of you, Max, you were extremely decisive it sounds like, or you knew so early. And then, Bo, you were not aware of maybe the world in certain ways. So I think I want to ask what may be led up to these realizations. So Max, I’ll start with you first and Bo, I’ll ask the question which you can answer after. But Max, this is clarity, for lack of a better word, you had extreme clarity of where you knew home to be. So for you, growing up, did you always have the sense of knowing or did you have certain conversations or values instilled in you by your parents? So listen, I’m not saying it was an easy decision to eventually make your way home, but I’m curious, maybe, what enabled you to be so in tune with that.
And then, for you Bo, to answer after, how come you said you were never around people who were politically motivated or had those discussions to have a point of view? I’m curious, how come? What were the conversations at the table growing up? Yeah, so that’s kind of where I want to… So Max, why don’t you take it first.
Max Gottlieb:
So by way of background, I’m a seventh generation West Virginia. I date my West Virginiahood and my Mountaineerhood back to when West Virginia became a state. I’m a descendant of the Lilly family. For all those out there that know the Lilly Family Reunion held in Southern West Virginia is, I believe, fact check me here Bryan or Bo, I believe is the or one the largest family reunions in the country, has been for a long time. So I come from actually both sides. That’s my mom’s side of the family that for seven generations did not leave West Virginia.
But it’s fascinating, my dad’s side of the family were immigrants from Eastern Europe. And specifically, my great-grandfather got on a boat, got off at a port, got on a train and got off in Welch, West Virginia with very little background. And the only reason he went there is because another person from his village had gone there and set up a store, so he did the same thing.
And although these sides of the family came from very different backgrounds, generation after generation, when a lot of people were leaving the area for a variety of reasons that changed over those years, including continuing today with a lot of people in my generation leaving West Virginia and the mountain regions generally, the people from whom I descend, my ancestors, they all stayed.
My grandfather had an opportunity when he sold his stores to go have a big job out of state, an executive position. When he sold, he had his chain of drug stores. And he said, “I’ll make a lot of money, a lot of opportunities, but I can’t leave West Virginia.”
My other grandfather, my mom’s dad, had an opportunity, he was with the Army Corps of Engineers and received a big promotion that would’ve taken him out of the state and he would’ve been a regional head. And my grandmother said, “You’re welcome to take it but I ain’t leaving.”
Same thing happened with my dad and mom, they got big job offers that would’ve taken them out of the state and they said, “No.”
So I think my sense of home, largely, has been instilled, maybe not purposely, but just through osmosis, through getting to know my family, through hearing those stories. But that never made me insular. I was very lucky to have traveled as a younger person, both something my family members encouraged. And what I saw was, although home was clearly West Virginia and was the mountains, that didn’t mean you had to be closed off. So you could experience and see different things, but the beauty is you can bring those things, like going to school in DC, back to your home and make it a better, more vibrant place.
Just as an example of finding that sense of home wherever you go, Bo has had this experience with me and my family does the same thing, I have been literally in Africa, in Morocco, flying WV, gold blue, and had somebody go, “Let’s go Mountaineers.” And sure enough, talk about who’s where, the connections to whom, who their second cousin is, is from a place that my wife’s family, it’s using that sense of community and that sense of place and that sense of purpose, but using it as a way, to not only engage with the broader world, but also bringing the broader world into your home to make it better.
So I think I veered a little bit from your initial question, but the short answer, which I’m not good at, is probably just, I’ve been very blessed and I’ve been lucky to be placed in with a family that made decisions that maybe not everyone else would make.
Bryan Wish:
Yeah. Well, I love what you said about taking other pieces from where you went and bringing it home to, maybe not make it better, right, I mean, better to a degree because it’s already so much good, but maybe enhance the experience and the conversations and views and all the things. So it’s very neat that seven generations, uh-huh, that’s deep. Bo, did you know everything Max just said?
Bo Mahr:
So having gone to law school with Max, I think one of the first things you learn about Max is the deep West Virginia connections. Max is the unofficial head of West Virginia tourism. And I don’t think anybody truly realizes his contribution to the state. But no, the first thing that I really realized about Max was the genuineness of… When he would talk about West Virginia, it wasn’t as much of the, “Oh, I love the football team,” it was like, “No, I love the state, everyone in it.” I mean, it was deep. So slowly but surely, I learned a lot of that over time.
Bryan Wish:
All right. Well, good. We’re going to hit on something here that you guys don’t know about each other. I don’t know when and what, but-
Max Gottlieb:
Bryan, we spend a lot of time talking with each other so it’s a warning. It’s a good challenge for you. I have faith that you’ll get there.
Bryan Wish:
I like a good challenge. So Max, thanks for your answer. This is cool. I mean, this is really neat to kind of connect here. I’ve never done this, but I’m really enjoying it so I hope you guys are too. Bo?
Bo Mahr:
Yeah.
Bryan Wish:
Do you still remember the question I asked you? If not, I can repeat it.
Bo Mahr:
Yeah, about kind of what I, my family, my friends talked about if we weren’t talking about the big issues of the day.
Bryan Wish:
Why do you think your world views were so opened up and shifted? So yeah, so just kick it off for us.
Bo Mahr:
Yeah, I definitely thought there would be a little bit more discomfort in my worldview kind of being completely thrown open. But I think because I came into debate with such a clean slate, and I call it a clean slate because that’s way better than just calling it pure ignorance, but coming in with such a clean slate, I just kind of learned to take in information. And so, if the goal, and as a competitive person, if the goal is to go into a room and have enough information on both sides to where you can convince this person, you’re going to dig in, you’re going to get the information, you’re going to come up with the points, you’re going to figure out what is the best answer here.
And so, slowly, I would kind of form opinions on, all right, what’s the best information? What’s this? What’s that? And so, by the time I knew that I had a world view, it was kind of already there. And so, I just kind of woke up one day with these deep opinions on climate change and what we should do to mitigate it.
But for a lot of my friends and family who didn’t hold these opinions, they now had this kid who wants to talk about it all the time. And I think for the most part, most of our conversations revolve around what most people’s families talk about on kind of like a day-to-day, sports, you’re in a small town, you talk a lot about the other people in the small town. And suddenly, we’re at Thanksgiving and talking about universal healthcare and what the CBO thinks that’s going to cost. And it was definitely, I think, much more discomfort for the rest of my family as I’m talking to them about some of these topics. But luckily we were all really good sports about it. I think I was definitely the odd duck in the room coming in with opinions contrary to what a lot of them had grown up with, a lot of what they thought. But I think, luckily, all of us had a good enough relationship and were lighthearted enough to where we’ll disagree until the sun goes down, but it’s fun.
Bryan Wish:
Yeah, absolutely. I love what you said that maybe put them in a state of discomfort. You see, I grew up in a small town, we talked about people and you were talking about ideas or ideas that intellectually stimulated you, which can be hard because it creates that, I know that as well. So very interesting. And just curious because I want to eventually get to what you both are building, very cool, into what we can share. You mentioned you were talking about climate change and different things. What topics did you find yourself naturally gravitating towards?
Bo Mahr:
Yeah. So-
Bryan Wish:
But Max, I want you to build on that too. When you were at that age, what were some of the things you were thinking about then at a more macro global level? So Bo, why don’t you start it.
Bo Mahr:
Yeah. So I was involved in two different kind of speaking events, we called them, one was Domestic Extemp and so, it was extemporaneous speaking on domestic issues. Pull three topics, pick one, you have 30 minutes to prep and then you go give a seven-minute speech. That, you had to be prepped on everything because who knows what those three topics are going to be. The other one that I was involved in, which I loved much more, was Policy Debate.
And of the three kinds of debate, Policy has the one topic that does not change throughout the year. So sometime before the school year starts, in the end of the proceeding year, the topic gets announced. And going into my junior year, so end of my sophomore year, it was announced the topic was going to be, and it was The United States Federal Government Should Substantially Increase Alternative Energy Incentives Within The United States.
And I remember that because for the next like 15 months of my life, I was saying that nearly daily, every other weekend in high school, we’d go to a tournament and talk about that one topic. And so, you do a deep dive for over a year on this. And everyone’s coming to the table with a different idea, whether it’s onshore wind, offshore wind, various types of solar. Our case was space based solar power that would beam the power back down to earth through microwave beams. There’s hydropower, there’s geothermal and so, you had to know the pros and cons, ins and out, costs of all of this.
And for whatever reason, that kind of struck a cord as, all right, this is a nice intersection of science and policy and ways to tackle climate change and there’s finance involved in this and I mean, you name it. And for whatever reason, I don’t really know why, I just kind of got hooked on it.
And so, then, when I went off to college, majored in finance and economics, but all of my extracurriculars were environmental and centered around clean energy. I did clean energy investing in a student run investment fund on campus. And then, in law school, interned for clean energy companies. And you can almost draw a straight line from that topic to what I do now, which is I’m a renewable energy lawyer. And so, somehow, I just kind of gravitated to this topic. But for debate really pushing kids into things like this, I don’t think I would’ve ever really come across that and that whole timeline would’ve shifted.
Bryan Wish:
Yeah. And just to what you said that you went for a year on a topic, that was so deep. And I have to imagine that skill, wanted to know something so deeply and then argue it or debate it has played out in so many other areas of your life.
Bo Mahr:
Yes, for better or worse.
Bryan Wish:
So I’m sure you win Max over in a lot of arguments. Max, how’s that feel?
Max Gottlieb:
No.
Bo Mahr:
You would like to think.
Max Gottlieb:
Yeah, no comment, Bryan. I am… What? … they say, I guess, maybe stubborn would be this word. But I will say, 15 months may be a little too short for how long Bo has been diving in to that material, I would probably say it’s much closer to 15-plus years because I’m fairly certain, from the time he started that research, it hasn’t stopped.
Bo Mahr:
Yeah.
Max Gottlieb:
But Bo is a fairly constant consumer of information, especially related to energy needs and energy production, and I admire that about him.
And I want to pick up on something else that Bo had said earlier and then I’ll get to your question, Bryan. Bo noted that his family didn’t always hold the same opinions. And one thing that Bo has a particular skill with is being able to discuss issues with people that don’t necessarily agree with him and keep a pleasant, happy demeanor in doing so, which is not always easy for a lot of people, it’s sometimes difficult, including for me.
But by way of example, Bo and I, one of our closest friends in law school, held very different opinions from Bo. We like to joke that it was Bo on one side, our friend on the other side and me kind of moderating the two. But other than a few times, when there were choice words usually thrown at Bo, understandably-
Bo Mahr:
Deserved.
Max Gottlieb:
Deserved, absolutely. It was impressive to me that we maintained that close-knit friendship despite these large, even sometimes value policy based disagreements. So that’s something I would commend that maybe from the background that Bo’s continued throughout his time.
But okay, Bryan, so question to me was what was I caring about when Bo was getting into space energy and microwaves? This will come as a shocker to you all, I was thinking about how to make my home better, how to help save it because places like West Virginia, and I keep saying West Virginia, it’s because it means a lot to me, but this experience is not exclusive to our Mountain State, it has happened all over the country, but for at least the past 40 years, West Virginia has been struggling mightily and I’ve been very conscious of that.
I remember one of the first real projects that I had a passion, what I would call an adult passion for, I was fairly young, I was interning for Senator Jay Rockefeller who was the senior senator at the time from West Virginia, newly senior senator. And an aluminum plant had shut down in the western part of the state basically diminishing or gutting a fairly large community. What has happened with places like the Rust Belt in West Virginia and even out west, plants held down a community and then, the company says it’s way cheaper for me just to go do this some far off place, someplace else in on the globe. And so, they pick up and leave, and in their wake, they leave a lot of lives that had depended upon the centering of the economy based on what they had been producing.
And so, the closing of that aluminum plant really hit me because I knew people, even though it wasn’t my hometown, I knew people that were affected by that and other similar circumstances. And I wanted to do whatever I could to try to come up with an idea to help. So I dug in and thankfully, Senator Rockefeller’s office was willing to entertain my time and effort and probably annoyance in digging into it.
And I had come up with a plan to provide for cheaper, more efficient energy production for the plant because the company had said that that was the reason why they were closing, rising energy costs. This was in 2011. And I just remember the feeling of gratification that I got and I was able to speak with some people in other positions, the feeling of gratification I got in trying to advocate to revitalize and save a community, which is something that means a lot to me, knowing what my community is and where I’m from.
So that’s very much of what I was focused on then, and just like Bo, I continue to be focused on pretty much that same thing. You can pretty much draw a straight line between that experience and many of my focuses now, it’s never changed. Making places, revitalizing places like West Virginia, rural places throughout the mountains and otherwise is something that means a lot to me because I see value, value that maybe not everyone is made aware of. These places are unique and they’re rich and yes, they have their problems, but all places do. And it means a lot to me to help try to save these unique places to make our country a more rich and diverse place.
Bryan Wish:
That’s beautiful. Yeah, I mean, you can just tell the passion when you talked about the aluminum plant shutting down, what can I do? I’ll go up to the senator to make changes. And as much as you say you appreciate their willingness to listen, it’s value that you were bringing to them as well, taking hard thinking off their plate. But you clearly cared. And I love that you brought it back to how do I revitalize a place? And how do I think about that within my own hometown or other rural areas because I’m sure there’s frameworks and learnings that can be applied everywhere.
And I’m just curious, out of that experience, Max, when you think about revitalizing a place or what it takes to create that systemic change per se and build from the ground up, what are some of the things you’ve maybe learned? I know your company is working to do similar work. What are some of the things in which you learned at that young age or younger age, this maybe key philosophies, principles that you’ll carry forward into your future?
Max Gottlieb:
Well, the number one thing I learned is that it ain’t easy, it’s really not. There’s a reason why not everybody is just out successfully revitalizing all these places, it’s because it’s difficult. There are serious challenges, both resource financially and more socially. Change is difficult for a lot of people. And even good change can be difficult. And so, getting the community buy-in is probably one of the main takeaways. Being authentic about what you’re trying to do because so many times, you will have large companies, you’ll have politicians who will make these big pronouncements about this plant or this manufacturer or this project or this building. It’s going to be the new thing. And it’s going to make this place the place. And it doesn’t come to pass or it comes and it actually employs people from elsewhere and you don’t get any of the value here in the community.
So I think the one thing above all the principles is if you’re going to revitalize, you have to put hard work into getting community buy-in and doing this because you care about the community, not because you see an opportunity. There’s a lot more of the nitty-gritty that I could tell you, but I think that that is number one in my experience, if you don’t have the buy-in, if you don’t have the people in the communities able to trust that you want to do this because it’s right by them, not because it’s right by some other interest, which has happened all too often in rural places.
Bryan Wish:
Well, perspective is great. And you not just doing the nitty-gritty and the hard work because to make that change, you’re going to have to do that. But how do you create relationships with key stakeholders to also ignite change? I read a book in the fall, it was called Power for All and there was a concept in it and it was called the state of in-betweeness. So at an organizational level, just because you sit at the top of the mountain doesn’t mean you have the most power within the organization, it’s the person who maybe has the key relationships, the in-between level, at the top and the bottom. And that’s a very powerful seat to play in. And so, what I’m hearing you say is you need to be in a position where I build trust with people that influence decision making and have the work ethic to make that happen.
Max Gottlieb:
That’s exactly right. And I’ll refine just one thing there that you said. It’s not just the key decision makers of the community and the stakeholders. This is something that I think a lot of people overlook who are trying to make good in struggling places, do good in struggling places. You can’t just talk to the people who’ve got the power or the decision making ability. To be authentic about it, you got to go talk to the people who live there, the people who seemingly have very little power over the situation. That’s what I’ve found to be the most rewarding and frankly beneficial in doing real, authentic revitalization work.
It is very much of a ground-up approach to do it successfully. Yes, you do have to have the community leaders and the decision makers buy-in, but that buy-in, even if it happens, doesn’t mean a lot if you’re either approaching it without listening to the community members themselves or if you’re doing it, it’s not actually something they want, it’s not something that they see the value in. So even if it’s something that you think is good and the decision makers think it’s good, if the community doesn’t see the value in it, then it may be a lot for nothing.
And one of my favorite things, no matter where I go, is to find the person in the room that no one else is speaking to and speak to that person because I have had more insightful conversations with people who were maybe doing a job in a room where a bunch of people were networking or people who were there because they had to be instead of wanting to be. And when you engage people on that level, just very human to human level, and get their insights, you remove yourself from what often become echo chambers of decision makers. And so, that would be my one caveat to what you’re saying.
Bryan Wish:
Extremely well said. And-
Max Gottlieb:
Well, long-winded. I don’t know if it was well said, but there were a lot of words there.
Bryan Wish:
Well, I’m going to flip the script here in a second to your co-conspirator and let him share, maybe he can do it in less words, but no, Max, that was really nicely shared. And I think that top-down, bottom-up approach and really getting into the different echo chambers and kind of hearing the voices of people to create something that can unite and connect, and to build a company, you need to do the same things. And I think the way you guys are doing it, authentically and from the ground up, those skills are paramount. Max, from everything… I’m sorry, Bo, from everything Max just said, you’re someone who goes really deep on topics and forms points of view, anything to add or offer that maybe Max didn’t touch on in relation to how to revitalize a rural area or just revitalization in general?
Bo Mahr:
No, I think one of the things is, I think, the way that Max comes to this topic gives him a viewpoint on this that I think is even better than anything that I’ve experienced. Because for a while, coming out of my small town, I was like, “All right, never going to go back there, just going to go find somewhere else.” Whereas, I think Max, with that clarity that you mentioned earlier, has thought about this way more in depth than a lot of people like me who for a moment are kind of detached from where they came from and more of a rural area.
Later on, I kind of came to it and discovered a lot of the same things that Max had talked about, focusing on grassroots rather than grasstops. I spent a lot of time doing things with the Sierra Club in undergrad and they do a phenomenal job teaching you how to connect with the community. And eventually, as I came to appreciate where I came from and kind of tap back into this, I kind of came to the same conclusions that Max has. But I think he is able to say it with even more clarity than I think most people can because he’s been on this since day one.
Bryan Wish:
Grassroots greater than grasstops. It’s pretty good.
Bo Mahr:
Yeah.
Bryan Wish:
Well-
Max Gottlieb:
See, I told you he was better with stuff like that.
Bryan Wish:
But you know what Max? It takes long-winded thinking and big vision thinking to get to the simplicity of it. Bo, he has to pull the essence out of things to argue nicely, so you actually tee it up for him. So I think, really, Bo should thank you because of the passion that allows you to deliver information the way-
Max Gottlieb:
Yeah Bo, you need to thank me more often. Thank you Bryan, I’m going to start talking about that more.
Bryan Wish:
I feel like-
Bo Mahr:
I just get to come in and back clean up.
Bryan Wish:
Yeah, I think I’m going to change my profession and be a founder’s couple therapists. It’d be good.
Bo Mahr:
Yeah. Yes.
Max Gottlieb:
We need it. Yeah, that’s right.
Bryan Wish:
No, this is good. Wow, we’ve covered some ground here. And it’s neat because I’ve known you both for, I don’t know, since April when we met. And there’s always something so genuine or there’s a sense of warmth to you both, like to hear you guys speak to your roots or where you came from and just… Anyways, it’s all kind of making sense a little bit more why that connective tissue felt very strong so thanks to our friend Payton.
So anyways, guys, I want to focus on now your relationship. We have about 20 minutes-ish left. You guys met in college. I would love to know maybe a little bit about what brought you guys initially together and how the relationship has evolved a little bit or a lot over the years because you guys have joined forces in a fairly powerful way to bring your unique backgrounds together. So I kind of want the origins of where you guys came together and how the relationship has evolved and where you are today a little bit. So let’s dive in. Bo, is that a point to have Bo take it first. Okay, Bo, go ahead.
Bo Mahr:
Yeah, so I’m trying to pinpoint maybe the exact day, but we met in law school. And law school’s a pretty dark time for everyone and so, this relationship was forged in the trenches. But we started studying together, hanging out together one oh year and kind of understood that we don’t come from that different of a background when you get down to it and that we had many of the same ideas, different paths to those ideas, but kind of came to a lot of the same conclusions at the end of the day. And so, I think, you start enjoying having conversations with somebody and that, it just kind of snowballs from there.
And one of the things we did together in law school, we did a lot of moot court together in law school. And moot court is exactly what it sounds, you come up with kind of a fake topic, go in front of mostly fake judges, sometimes real judges and have at it. And Max, our other law school friend who is on the opposite side of the aisle from me, the three of us were a moot court team and we took part in, it was the West Virginia University Energy and Sustainability Law Moot Court Competition. And I think part of it was, I like sustainability, part of it was, well, Max is from West Virginia and always talks this place up, maybe we should go visit. So we all sign up, we go out there.
And weirdly enough, I mean, one, it was fun just to see Max run into everyone, top to bottom. You turn a corner, Max is shaking somebody’s hand. But two, we got to go talk about issues that we cared about and be complimentary in that. At the end of the day, I think I got the second best speaker at the tournament, which was great. You’re all sitting down to dinner, they’re doing these announcements, they call my name and I was like, no, surely not. I go up there and Max is clapping for me and everything. And I’m like, “Oh this is so great.” I sit down and they go, “And the best speaker of the tournament, Max Gottlieb.” And I was just like, “Oh no. Well, this ruins all of it.”
Max Gottlieb:
It was an inside job, Bo, I had the West Virginian advantage.
Bo Mahr:
Oh man, just brought me all the way up to crush me all the way down. But we actually ended up go on to take first place at that tournament. And I think that is kind of the epitome of what I would say our relationship was. It was kind of this heady, interesting, complex stuff. Both coming at it from different perspectives but being able to come to similar conclusions. It’s, we’re out in West Virginia, it’s sustainability and it just happened to work out. And so, I think we’ve taken that relationship that was forged in fire over there and trying to go on and do something bigger with it.
Max Gottlieb:
So my commentary on our relationship, it has certainly developed and advanced. And it’s hard to believe that we have been friends for damn near a decade, we’re getting there. That is wild to think about.
Bo Mahr:
I thought you were going to say it was just hard to imagine that we were friends, so that’s good.
Max Gottlieb:
I mean, that’s true as well. But one of the things that I notice about Bo, and we had kind of a core friend group in law school as so many do and in fact, we still have that core friend group, we still have the chat message chain and all sorts of funny and interesting and silly things transpire, but one of the things I really liked about Bo is that he puts up and is a good sport about my nonsense and some of my, I’ll call them, peculiarities. Bo, for everyone out there, is an enjoyer of fine liquors, responsibly of course.
Bo Mahr:
Of course.
Max Gottlieb:
But he enjoys the finer things in multiple respects. And when I would bring my Miller Lites to his get togethers, it was always accepted and I got razed about it appropriately. But it’s one of the things that I think early on, what Bo was talking about, is we do recognize the similarities and differences and how we have come to issues, how we’ve come to conclusions about things that are, even though different, we both see and appreciate where the other one has come from.
But it’s also that Bo is a very understanding guy and he likes to have fun and I like to have fun. We’re not all serious, reading into policy and thinking about these things. We like to talk sports and talk everything else and TV episodes and my lack of all cultural knowledge, that’s a frequent topic of discussion.
But I think the key to our relationship has kind of been a trust. Yeah. I trust Bo implicitly, even if I don’t agree with him, I trust him. And I think, kind of turning to our current venture, that’s very helpful because as two co-founders who are approaching this in a way where we are equals, we’re going to be co-chief executive officers and co-presidents. There are a lot of times when we disagree but even when we disagree…
In fact, it just happened the other day, we were talking about something that had to do with finances, so it was real serious. And Bo, as he always does, made his point and had done research on it and brought all that research to bear. And my response was, “Fair enough, let’s do it.” Even though I disagreed with him initially, he did what he’s been doing since debate, which is he goes and extensively researches it, he knows where I’m coming from, we talk about it. And more often than not, he’s usually right when he does that.
So I think that’s really how our relationship has advanced. But in many ways, it’s the same because when we were on the moot court team, I had to trust Bo that when he got up for our side he was going to do the right thing. And then, I could laugh with him after and our other teammate about how he always had the same hand motions and was always looking at things no matter what. Bo’s always looking at things.
Bo Mahr:
Yes.
Max Gottlieb:
Anyway, so again, that’s probably more than you needed but that’s a little bit on it.
Bryan Wish:
This is a harmonious relationship in a lot of ways. At the same time, it reminds me of Carson who you know a little bit, we’ve had some very healthy disagreements. But to your point, being able to work through that, it really makes things better because at the end of the day you trust each other, have aligned values and want the same outcome.
Max Gottlieb:
Yeah. And just to add on that, it embodies what we’re trying to do with our project, which is, of course, be a successful business, which takes input and disagreement and work through, but also help set a new path for communities. And just like we were talking about earlier, the buy-in, you have a lot of disagreements, the ability to listen, work through them and respond appropriately, that’s where we genuinely come from because that’s how we operate on individual levels.
Bryan Wish:
Mm-hmm. So cool. You know what I was thinking? I was going to respond after Bo and then you took… But Max, I wanted to let you go. But I can see why Max, like two things, Bo told the story because you wanted that feel good of I came in first place, totally get it, but-
Max Gottlieb:
Of course. Yeah. So rarely do I come in first place over Bo that I really want him to just remind me of that.
Bryan Wish:
Right. And I was going to say that Bo, you’re quite competitive. But the quote that stuck out to me or it came to me as you were talking was, if you can’t beat him, join him.
Bo Mahr:
Amen.
Bryan Wish:
And so, I’m really getting this, why this relationship is so dynamic. And so, no, [inaudible 00:56:20], I think it’s really cool. Right. There’s clearly very distinct maybe differences in approaches where maybe Max, I don’t want to project here, but maybe you’re like fuel and passion to go forth quickly or just do. It is great. Where Bo, oh, sorry, Max, where Bo, I should have this down by now, that more pragmatic like, “Let me pull you back a little bit and think this through.” And I think that’s actually a super healthy dynamic to make the best decision possible.
Bo Mahr:
Yeah.
Bryan Wish:
All right. So let’s talk about this, you guys have alluded to it, you guys are building something in the sustainable FinTech space. I know there’s things you can’t share, things you can share. First question is, what made you guys partner up on this? I mean, clearly there’s a long history of relationship and friendship, but now you guys are on a professional journey together in a very real way. What can you share about that vision and what’s it’s mean for you both?
Bo Mahr:
Sure. So I think like a lot of friends, you know kick around, “Oh, let’s start a business.” There’s always, “Oh, yeah, let’s buy a bar. Let’s go do that thing.” And I think because Max and I are both so action oriented and driven that you can only joke about it so long before you’re like, “Ah, let’s do something about this.”
And kind of going back to what I was talking about at the Energy and Sustainability Moot Court Tournament, we have these interests. And really, what we were talking about, about where we’ve come from in relation to our moments, we have these complimentary interests going and helping underserved communities, tackling big issues like climate change. And if we were going to go do a thing, why not do good while you’re at it? Because I think, otherwise, it would feel hollow to us both because the competition, the success, being profitable, that’s great, that’ll get you most of the way, but it won’t get you across the finish line.
And so, I think when we were coming together on this and we knew we were going to do something, trying to blend, not just our interests, but where we wanted to make an impact into a profitable business is where we came to, let’s enter the FinTech space, I majored in finance, Max does a lot of that in his law practice, and let’s do good with it, let’s make it sustainable, something that I’m really passionate about, let’s make it have a huge community impact, something Max is really passionate about. And so, I think it was just this nice blend of a lot of our different interests.
Bryan Wish:
Yeah. Max, what would you say?
Max Gottlieb:
Oh, he’s right on. The only thing I would add is that we want to do well and do good and do it different. When Bo and I first started talking, I said, “This is awesome but you know I’m only in for this if it’s going to be based out of Appalachia.”
Bo Mahr:
Yes.
Max Gottlieb:
And Bo said, “Done.” And so, what we are building is something that will, hopefully, have a nationwide footprint but have a base and heart in areas like Appalachia that are struggling and that we’ll be able to help rebuild and revitalize them. And in that way, I was speaking just recently with somebody who has a very prominent position with respect to helping to rebuild and revitalize Appalachian areas. And what that person said to me about what we’re attempting to do is that rural places like Appalachia have been behind, a lot of times, they’re behind and sometimes, they’re in line with what’s happening, but rarely do they lead at the forefront. And what Bo and I are attempting to do is to rewrite that narrative so that we can be leading from the forefront in something that will hopefully set a new course for what’s possible.
Bryan Wish:
Yeah. Well, as you guys were both sharing your answers, what struck out to me where a lot of the things that were said at the beginning of the call where Max, for you, Appalachia, I’m not saying, Bo, this isn’t important to you by any means, but Max, for you, it’s so important to create that change at the rural levels and be there and carry forth that lineage around things that you believe in.
And then, Bo, debate, bigger picture thinking, clean energy. And you guys have married those core components of you. And I think that is so neat that you stuck to your values and you haven’t compromised on what you both believe in to then go out and build something where you share a vision for a better future. And I think it takes a strong foundation to build a great company upon. And you guys are, I’m saying it’s happily ever after, but at least have aligned on the right things early and it’s so clear from just this conversation the mutual respect that you share for each other.
Max Gottlieb:
Mine, not so well justified or earned, but Bo’s is understandable. That’s right. But thank you for that Bryan. I genuinely appreciate that.
Bryan Wish:
Of course. Is there anything, for those who listen, that you want to share about the company that would be worth sharing? I’ll just leave it at that just because I know where you guys are at a bit. Is there anything you want to touch on or important to state before I move forward the conversation?
Bo Mahr:
No, just to stay tuned. We’re really excited about it. We have kind of a splash page up at ridge.eco, R-I-D-G-E.E-C-O. You can go and put your email in and once we do get up and running, we’ll let you know.
Bryan Wish:
Awesome. Awesome.
Max Gottlieb:
And that should be a little later this year, so be looking for it.
Bryan Wish:
Awesome. So we have a few minutes left here to you both. And by the way, let me back up. So excited for you guys and excited to see [inaudible 01:04:20] together.
Max Gottlieb:
Thanks Bryan.
Bryan Wish:
A few minutes left here, maybe we’ll do some fun rapid fire, that’s what’s calling me and we’ll end on a high. Max, what’s one thing you’ve always wanted to say to Bo, but you haven’t?
Max Gottlieb:
I’ve said a lot of things to Bo.
Bo Mahr:
That he can say in polite company.
Max Gottlieb:
Yeah.
Bryan Wish:
And that’s a hard question. I get it.
Max Gottlieb:
It is. The one thing that I haven’t said to Bo. Thank you. Yeah, thank you for entrusting me to do this with you.
Bo Mahr:
I appreciate that.
Bryan Wish:
All right, Bo… I love that. What’s one thing you would say to Max?
Bo Mahr:
I think he knows I appreciate his genuineness, but I think I’ve always been very jealous of his clarity and knowing where he wants to go back to and what change that he wants to make and just being so steadfast in that. And so, yeah, I mean, I appreciate it but man, I mean, to the level of jealousness. It’s impressive.
Max Gottlieb:
Do you hear that competitiveness, Bryan?
Bryan Wish:
Yes.
Max Gottlieb:
He won’t even give me, “Hey, you got this.” I’ve tossed him a nice thank you and he comes back with, “God, I really dislike how just centered you are.” Very complimentary of each other.
Bryan Wish:
Yeah, I think he’s just jealous of your conviction.
Bo Mahr:
Yeah.
Bryan Wish:
But like any good leader, he wants to keep you on your toes.
Max Gottlieb:
No, that’s right. And you know what? Bryan and Bo will attest this, I need to be kept on my toes, so it is exactly what I need.
Bryan Wish:
You’re firmly rooted in your beliefs and where you want to go, but if you get too firmly rooted, you might go too quick in the wrong direction and that’s why you got Bo to pull back.
Max Gottlieb:
There you go.
Bo Mahr:
That’s right.
Bryan Wish:
Okay, so Max is having a family reunion, he has generations of relatives and he tasks you with bringing all the food and drinks. I’m not talking about what’s the total cost at the grocery store, but I’m asking, what are you bringing to the party and why?
Bo Mahr:
Pepperoni rolls and moonshine.
Max Gottlieb:
Can’t get that second one at the store.
Bo Mahr:
I’ll stop by Tudor’s Biscuit world and-
Max Gottlieb:
My man.
Bo Mahr:
… I’ll get the minor. I’ll just catered by Tudor’s Biscuits, which I will say, one of the first places Max, I think, took me in the drive through West Virginia and does not disappoint. So anybody making the trek through West Virginia, stop at Tudor’s.
Max Gottlieb:
God, that was so much better than anything else Bo could have said, Bryan. That made my heart feel good.
Bryan Wish:
I really wanted to test the level of depth of this relationship and I knew food, that was the answer, right?
Bo Mahr:
Yes.
Bryan Wish:
All right. Bo, I want to turn the peoples in the last question. The fair diplomat over here is very polished. I want you to ask a question to Max to bring us home and then we’ll close out. Max, you got to be on your toes.
Max Gottlieb:
I’m literally on my toes.
Bo Mahr:
This is tough.
Max Gottlieb:
Yeah.
Bo Mahr:
I’ll leave it a little open ended. Where are we five years from now? What is bringing us joy? What have we accomplished?
Max Gottlieb:
Gosh.
Bo Mahr:
Big broad. I know, it’s an unfair question. It’s unfair.
Max Gottlieb:
I thought you were going to ask me something about one of the stupid things I did the other day. Okay. You’re going much broader. In five years I see us taking a role as… Well, hopefully, in five years we will have succeeded or be on the path to success with our venture. And so, from that perspective, we will have done well and done good, hopefully. But by five years, I see us potentially focusing more on the impacts we could make with that success and moving beyond not just what we can do with our venture and with its affiliates, but really trying to amplify that impact and going even broader with our model of doing well and doing good.
Bo Mahr:
Well said.
Bryan Wish:
That’s great. I think this was one of the best interviews I’ve ever done, ever.
Bo Mahr:
Appreciate it.
Bryan Wish:
Very, very fun. Max and Bo, where can people find you, reach out to you, get to know you?
Bo Mahr:
Yeah, look me up on LinkedIn just under Bo Mahr, B-O M-A-H-R.
Max Gottlieb:
And you can also find me on LinkedIn, Max Gottlieb. M-A-X G-O-T-T-L-I-E-B as in boy. I always have to do that because people always mess up that last B. And hopefully, you’ll be finding us in more places here in the not so distant future.
Bo Mahr:
Yeah.
Bryan Wish:
Amazing. Well, I know this episode is going to hit every single door in Appalachia, so I’m fully convinced people are going to have newfound respect for you both. So guys, thank you both.
Max Gottlieb:
Hey Bryan, I’ll start playing this loudly in my car going up and down the holler and make sure everyone hears it. And so, don’t you worry. If you get a whole more downloads from my neck of the woods and that’ll be what it is.
Bryan Wish:
Hey, I mean, maybe they’ll be inspired to think about their one away moments and then have great conversations at the dinner table.
Max Gottlieb:
That’s right.
Bryan Wish:
All right.
Max Gottlieb:
Thank you so much, Bryan.
Bryan Wish:
Yeah. Thank you. Well, I’m to figure out where to stop recording. I don’t know where it went. Oh, here we go.