Fotini Iconomopoulos is an Author, Keynote Speaker, MBA Instructor, Trainer & Advisor with Forward Focusing, an organization that helps companies strategically invest energy into the areas that will advance their commercial goals. Nicknamed “the negotiator” as a child, Fotini has always channeled her energy into her passion for the power of forward-thinking. Today, business executives partner with her to achieve their business goals, increase profitability and create a competitive advantage. Fotini empowers executives and their teams through her expertise in negotiation, communication and persuasion. To share her strengths with more business leaders, Fotini recently returned to the classroom as an instructor of MBA Negotiations at the Schulich School of Business at York University in Toronto.
Over the last 8 years, Fotini has helped clients all over the globe focus their energy on moving their commercial objectives forward. She thrives on guiding clients through high-stakes scenarios in such industries as CPG, retail, professional services, energy, telecommunications, and finance. She is passionate about helping people develop the confidence to take on whatever challenges come their way, and has a particular interest in empowering women and disadvantaged groups. When Fotini is not with clients or in the classroom, she spends her time public speaking on negotiation, communication, leadership and conflict management, and offering her experience to meaningful non-profit initiatives.
Transcript:
Bryan Wish:
Hi Fotini. Welcome to The One Away Show.
Fotini Iconomopoulos:
Thank you for having me. It’s so nice to be here with you.
Bryan Wish:
Absolutely. Well, I love what you’re all about. I’ve done some research, but I want to dive into you and share The One Away moment. So what is the One Away moment you want to share with us today?
Fotini Iconomopoulos:
I had a hard time deciding. There’s been so many interesting inflection points, but the one that I think is most relevant for your audience and that sticks out in my most recent memory is, a number of years ago, I was working for an organization before I was self-employed. And I got into, let’s call it a discussion with a former employer, with a former manager, about some discrimination I had discovered at work. So I found out I wasn’t being paid the same as some of my male colleagues even though I had a bigger book of business, and I had more experience, and I was that high potential employee who was hitting all of the marks for everything. Objectively, there was no reason for me to not be making more if not the same as my peers.
Fotini Iconomopoulos:
And when I got into that conversation with him, he did all of the things that I expected somebody like him to do, because I knew his personality so well and I’ve done a lot of reading about this type of personality. And I was about to let my Mediterranean reactive blood start to take over. And I was about to launch into some reactive response. And I had this moment where I tell people I describe it as I hit my mental pause button. So it’s almost like, when all that adrenaline is pumping through your system and you’re getting really excited for better or for worse, and you’re about to spit out this verbal diarrhea for lack of a better description, I just all of a sudden hit this button on my brain and went, “No, this is not going to happen this way. I am not going to give him the satisfaction of saying something that I might regret and saying something that he may try to use against me in the future.”
Fotini Iconomopoulos:
So it’s almost like I had this out of body experience watching me having a conversation with my Skype screen at that moment in time, because I’ve been doing this virtual thing for many years. And I was so proud of myself in that moment for holding back. Not holding back advocating for myself, but holding back from going into the name calling or any of those other things that could have come out of my mouth in that moment. And instead, I spent my time listening. I was really quiet and listened to what he said. And then when he was done speaking, there was this awkward silence for a minute. And then I said, “Thank you.” And he went, “What?” I said, “Well, you just said that you stuck your neck out for me. And if that is true, and you’re my manager and I’m supposed to be believing everything that you say, and you said you stuck your neck out for me and you’ve done everything you can to make sure I’m being paid, what I’m supposed to be paid, then thank you.”
Fotini Iconomopoulos:
And he started to calm down a little bit. And then I said, “I’ll take it from here.” And that’s when I saw his face go white again. He’s like, “Well, I don’t think you should raise this with our boss and with HR.” And I said, “Well, look, if you are saying that you’ve done everything…” And I just spit back out everything that he had said to me, I said, “Then I can’t sleep at night. I’ve told you I can’t sleep at night knowing that I haven’t done everything I possibly can to stand up for myself and advocate for myself and so on. So if you’ve done everything you can, I’ll take it from here.” And I was so unbelievably proud of how that moment turned out because he had nothing to take back to the board and say, “She’s being unreasonable. And she was emotional. And she was all of these things that women in business are often labeled as.”
Fotini Iconomopoulos:
So in the end, what happened was it did escalate. I took it to the person who’s now the CEO of that company. And it was a very similar conversation that happened over again. And I used the same exact strategies. But I had no regrets about it. I didn’t get the pay increase. That wasn’t the outcome. I wasn’t expecting to get it based on some history in that organization. But what I did get was the satisfaction and knowledge I needed to go, “Okay. This they’ve shown me their true colors. These are their values. They don’t match mine anymore. I have no curiosity left as to whether or not I should stay in this role.” This is the moment where I go, “It’s time for me to leave without any regrets.”
Fotini Iconomopoulos:
And it’s given me this platform and it’s given me this information about myself as well as human behavior that I now get to use for others that I am proud of and that inspires other to do quite similar things. So that for me was like that aha moment where my pause button was born, and I used that pause button as advice for so many other people that I help today.
Bryan Wish:
Wow. What emotionally mature way to navigate very hard conversations and way to maybe stay in your personal power, not give it away. And ultimately, rolling over every rock to realize you unearth all you could to realize, “I’m not aligned and I’m going to use this experience to go help other people through it.” So, I loved how you described it. I loved what you said and how you’ve turned it into your… and brought it into so much of your work today.
Fotini Iconomopoulos:
Yeah, it was one of those things. It’s not what I planned to do when I go in there.
Bryan Wish:
Right.
Fotini Iconomopoulos:
I was ready to defend myself. I was ready to go in there guns blazing. And yet it was this moment of clarity that happened, to go, “Oh, I’m going to do everything I possibly can so to have no regrets.” And now in hindsight, I’ve read so many books and I’ve learned so much about human behavior since then. It’s been many years since I’ve been self-employed let alone been in that situation. And I can still look back and go, “I did everything by the book. I did everything that every piece of advice says to do and they still weren’t going to change.” So therefore it’s not me, it’s them.
Bryan Wish:
Right.
Fotini Iconomopoulos:
And I can carry my head proudly and go, “This is what I was meant to do.” And I have no what ifs about that place in my life.
Bryan Wish:
Yeah, exactly. And you sounds like you made the experience about you and you didn’t point fingers and you didn’t accuse and you made the experience about yourself. And I think that’s also powerful. I think it’s so easy to point the finger and trying to accuse. And it’s a powerless position to be. So, good for you. Now, I want to ask the question and maybe peel back into who was the… Okay. Also, if you don’t mind me asking, how old were you when this incident happened?
Fotini Iconomopoulos:
I think I was in my early thirties.
Bryan Wish:
Okay.
Fotini Iconomopoulos:
I wasn’t a baby, but I’d been working for quite some time.
Bryan Wish:
Okay. Well, thank you. I know age is a question you’re not supposed to ask. So, who was the Fotini at 21 or 18? If you were in that same situation or position, how do you think you would’ve responded or done differently?
Fotini Iconomopoulos:
I was definitely more hotheaded back then. But there was always a level of… I would hold myself back right at the last second. I can recall a time, I think I was 18 or 19, I was talking to a friend of the family. I’m dating myself now, but if you’ve ever seen the movie, My Big Fat Greek Wedding, that was my upbringing. So, very strict household. Wasn’t allowed to do anything. I had to negotiate my way out of the house to go to prom, to go away to university, to do all the things that I’ve done in my life. So, it was a very sheltered and limiting household. And that was the community that I grew up in as well. Those were the expectations of the folks that I was raised with.
Fotini Iconomopoulos:
So when one of my dad’s friends said to me, “What is it that you want to do when you grow up?” Because I got into this program where I was meant to study both the bachelor of arts and the bachelor of science at the same time. My mission was keep every door open because I hadn’t figured out what I wanted to be when I grew up. So I get into this very hard to get into program. And he says, “What do you want to do?” And I said, “I’m not entirely sure. I do know that I want a job that’s going to allow me to travel.” That was the only thing I knew. And those were my exact words to him. And he said, “Fotini, you’re living in a dream world. Go to teachers college. Go have your summers off so you can raise a family.” And there’s nothing wrong with doing those things. It just wasn’t right for me. And it certainly wasn’t right of this person to impose that on me.
Fotini Iconomopoulos:
But I will never forget his words of going, “You’re living in a dream world.” And in my head I was going, “How dare you try to crush somebody when they’re about to launch into the world and tell them that’s not realistic or that’s…” Because it wasn’t completely out of whack. It wasn’t like I was saying, “I’m going to go be the number one recording artist in the world.” There’s a very small percentage of people who have that talent and who can accomplish those things. But I remember I was in the moment, I was really upset by that person. But again, I think at a subconscious level, I’ve certainly always had the ability to press pause. And because I knew that there’s close relationships and family relationships at stake, I didn’t get up and strangle this person the way I wanted to. I said, “Well, that’s your opinion.” And I just walked away.
Bryan Wish:
Yeah.
Fotini Iconomopoulos:
So, now I wouldn’t necessarily walk away, but I was able to have some element of self control. I just feel like today I have way more, have self control. But I’ve always had that fire in belly of standing up for myself and self advocacy. And that’s always been there for me.
Bryan Wish:
Yeah. That’s good. I mean good for you. And I mean, back to that experience, right? I think it’s so interesting when maybe people project their own experiences onto someone else when they come for advice. Maybe it’s things they didn’t do themselves. So they want to team you in a way. I’m not saying that was a person’s story, but good on you for being able to hit pause and reflect a little bit. A question I have for you is, you’ve talked about hitting pause and I know this is central to some of the work you do. And you have to sign in the background, say last get more.
Bryan Wish:
When you were in these moments of pause, right? When you’re about to encounter these tough situations from say growing up or things parents taught you, when you’re in those moments where you do need to take a few steps back before you make the best path forward, what are some of the questions that you have found yourself asking yourself, or the internal questions or dialogue? What does that look like so you can best navigate tough encounters or being able to get what you want outcome-wise out of the situation? What does that look like for you?
Fotini Iconomopoulos:
So there’s two moments that come to mind. One is more of an image. So especially one imminent, more competitive zone in my brain. I visualize like if you think of a bow and arrow, if you can imagine pulling the arrow back right before it’s going to launch forward. So in my brain, that moment of pause is the time to pull the arrow back and go, “What do I need to do to gain leverage in this moment? What information do I need to gain more power and so on?” So, that’s what’s happening in my brain. It’s almost like the world slows down for me. And I see things that I wouldn’t see if I was being that reactive mode and I wouldn’t get nearly as far.
Fotini Iconomopoulos:
But the other thing that happens when I’m in a more collaborative kind of zone is I actually think about what’s happened to this person. And sometimes it’s who’s hurt this person. What has their experience been? So I take myself out of my shoes for a second and I go, “If I was them sitting in front of me right now, what is causing me to react this way? What is causing me to say the things that I’m saying? What is the experience that led this person here to this moment?” And that is quite powerful as well, to be able to go, “Okay, now that I can understand what’s going on in their shoes, it’s much easier for me to respond accordingly in a way that’s going to make them want to listen to what is happening, or to find a solution that’s going to make them want to walk towards it.” Because I think what happens is so often when we go into reactive mode, it’s going, “You need to listen to me.”
Fotini Iconomopoulos:
But we don’t stop to actually listen. They’re giving us information. They’re giving us a path forward, but we don’t stop to listen well enough to figure out what that path actually looks like. And so even when it comes to those moments where you’re being bullied or discriminated against or whatever it is, that’s coming from somewhere for that individual. It might be that it’s their personal experience. They’ve never been exposed to someone like you before. It might be that they’ve learned this terrible behavior from somebody else. And that’s all they know. They don’t know what diplomacy and tact and kindness looks like because they’ve never experienced it before. So any one of those things will make me go, “Okay, if I understand where they’re coming from, I don’t have to agree with them, but it’s going to make me a better communicator to bring them on board with what it is that I want to accomplish in this moment.”
Bryan Wish:
Yeah. I love what you said, right? It’s two dimensions. It’s the pullback of the bow, but then it’s also really thinking about the other person’s experience in their own shoes and maybe being able to read them in a way that will help you respond better. And I like how you said, it’s two party kind of way in which you go about navigating a situation. And I think there’s something like deeper there, right? If you know someone super well, right? Like if I’ve known you 10 years, I might know some of those triggers or things that really… That’s data for me to use while as I’m pulling their back. But then, let’s say in the business context, if it’s somebody who I’ve met for the first time, I don’t have as much of that information.
Bryan Wish:
So, my question for you is, taking what you just said, for the person that maybe you’ve just met and maybe a business context and maybe kinds of people you work with, so when you don’t have that data on maybe more of a surface relationship that you’re just starting to build, how can you still react and be strategic and thoughtful, right? To still navigate a situation.
Fotini Iconomopoulos:
So, one of the easiest solutions to that, and this is advice I feel like I’ve given out a million times and I’ll give it out a million more, is to ask questions. If you want to know about somebody’s experience, ask about their experience. Find out more about their experience. So it’s little things like, “I’m curious, where does that come from exactly? Or what has your experience in the past been like with folks like me?” Or for me it’s even like, “When you’ve had speakers before, what are some of the comments you’ve gotten from your audiences?” And then I know exactly what it is that they’re expecting of me. If I’m going in for a negotiation of some kind with a big client, the first thing I do is I spend way more time on the phone or in person asking a zillion questions about, what have things been like in the past for you? Who is it that specifically that you’re dealing with? Tell me a little bit about your interactions with them.
Fotini Iconomopoulos:
And I learned so much just by third party, not even being there, to help me put together what is the profile of this individual that we’re dealing with and how can I help my client find a solution to work with that person? So, there’s so much that you can gain by just asking some really interesting questions, by looking really engaged. Because even the way you ask questions makes a big difference. So you can go in there and in your tone be quite accusatory. Like, where did that come from? Or you can go, “I’m really curious to understand. Where does that come from exactly? Or how did you get to that conclusion?” So it’s the way that you engage with folks that is going to make them want to either shut down or open up.
Fotini Iconomopoulos:
So in a virtual world especially, we have so much more work to do in terms of creating that warmth on the camera. I might smile a lot more on camera than I do in person, because in person I can shake someone’s hand, I can hug them, I can… There’s so many other opportunities we have for interaction. But here in the virtual world, a lot of that stuff falls flat. So, what can you do to enhance that in an email? What can you do to enhance that? These days I’m starting all of my emails with happy new year, and all of a sudden I see the responses that I get back from people when they might have gone straight into business right away. And my response is happy new year. Then they go, “Oh yeah, happy new year to you too.” And it changes. It really does change the dynamic between us for the next email that comes out. Or when we do meet in person, they’re much more warm to me than they would’ve been without that little extra warmth at the beginning of my note.
Bryan Wish:
Yeah. No, I love what you’re saying about those subtle shifts in communication or asking questions. And I was just thinking, giving your Greek background, if you send all your people some baklava and complete that prior to meetings, they’ll warm up to you a little more.
Fotini Iconomopoulos:
I mean in my culture, we have a word called philoxenia. Philo me friend and xeno being stranger. So philoxenia is the word that means making strangers friends. This is part of my culture. We are one of the most hospitable cultures on the planet. So, I’m allergic to buckle that I can’t eat walnuts. But I will find a way to make someone feel welcome if I can.
Bryan Wish:
Buy me cookie then. I love that. So my grandma was some Greek and she always made [inaudible 00:17:25] in the holidays and yeah. She’s not here with us, but anyways, we always had sheets of filo dough and all this stuff around the holidays. And yeah, it’s very good. So anyway.
Fotini Iconomopoulos:
It’s a staple in all Greek homes except for mine.
Bryan Wish:
Well, it seems like what you’re trying to say though, is you make a really concerted effort to break the ice in a way that makes people feel comfortable so that you can connect, communicate with them. And it sounds like both parties can have the outcomes that they want. And maybe it doesn’t happen all the time, but is doing it in a conscious way that’s taking all parties into account when communicating.
Fotini Iconomopoulos:
Yeah. I mean, most people don’t realize it doesn’t take much. It just takes it a hello. Even walking down the street in a city like mine. I live in Toronto and I’ve traveled to large cities all the time. And I remember the first time I traveled out West, out West it’s a much warmer culture than it is in let’s call it Eastern seaboard, right? Toronto’s a lot like New York and things like that. And I was running in Vancouver through Stanley Park and someone waved at me. And I looked behind me to go, “What’s going on? Who are they? What are they waving at?” And I was like, “Oh, it’s me. It’s me that they’re waving at.”
Fotini Iconomopoulos:
And then the same thing happened to me when I was down in Florida. I don’t know. Maybe it’s nicer, whether that makes people warmer or more, give salutations and stuff like that. But it lifted my spirits. It lifted my day. And when I come back to Toronto and I do that same thing, people are just as taken aback by it as I am. But then they settle in. They go, “Oh, well that was a nice little experience that we had together.”
Bryan Wish:
Yeah. Well, it’s funny. I totally get what you mean. And I’m out West now. I left DC in the summer and had no idea where I’d land. But I totally get what you mean. You ask someone you’re ordering food from, and you say, “How was your day?” And they’re taking it back that you just don’t want food. And it’s cool, right? It really brings the human experience out. So, I appreciate you going on this tangent with me given that experience. So, what I want to do is come back to this incision or this impetus for you to go a different direction in your life and to take this experience and turn it into a positive and powerful moment for you. So, when you figured out your values weren’t aligned and they weren’t going to respect you for what you brought to the table, and you said this is the end of my chapter here, what was next? How did you go about navigating the journey from there?
Fotini Iconomopoulos:
I feel like everything I’ve done has been acts of [inaudible 00:20:02]. And I say that because I never intentionally built, for example, a LinkedIn following. It was just me staying in touch with former clients who I taught training negotiation skills too, or I interacted with at some point over my career. And just wanting to keep tabs on folks because I know that on average people don’t stick around companies more than a couple years. So their email bounce backs would come back if we were just keeping a touch via email. And that slowly evolved into, as I was putting information out there, I was like, “Oh, here’s a cool article I think you guys you might find useful,” or, “Here’s a little nugget that someone asked me about today that I think might be valuable to more than just one person.” And by me just continuously putting that value out there, I started building a following. And by me creating those relationships with former clients, it was many of them who went, “When are you going to come work for us?”
Fotini Iconomopoulos:
And I was like, “Well, I don’t know if I really want to go down that road. I don’t know if that’s going to be a perfect fit. Give me a minute to figure out what I want to do next.” But it was because of so many fantastic relationships that the second I announced on LinkedIn that I was quitting that job, I had an influx of messages going, “What are you doing next and how can we help?” Which was amazing. And it was because I was helping so many people over the years and just making myself available to these folks and providing value that they wanted to reciprocate in kind. And so, I actually took a few months off and I traveled the world and I enjoyed myself immensely. And then it was these clients who had turned friends who wanted to be clients again, who went, “When are you going to come back and work with our team?”
Fotini Iconomopoulos:
And I said, “Well, I don’t work for that company anymore.” They said, “We didn’t hire the company, we hired Fotini.” And so, I thought I was just going to go do a favor for a friend by going in and helping them and helping their team through a specific situation. And then that turned into another favor and another favor and then another friend at another company. And then that person left that company and went to a new one and brought me in there. And I was thinking that I would just keep doing these favors until I had to get a real job. And almost a decade later, I can admit that it’s a real job. And by putting all of this information out there and by sharing stuff and then starting to share more information on LinkedIn and reaching out to really interesting folks and responding to interesting folks who reached out to me…
Fotini Iconomopoulos:
I mean, I remember, I think it was five or six years ago, six years ago, somebody from my alma mater… I did my MBA at the Schulich School of Business here in Toronto. And somebody who I didn’t know, who started teaching after I graduated, reached out and said, “Hey, you have a really cool profile. We have a lot in common. Do you want to come up to campus to have a coffee?” He was a professor. And I was like, “Yeah, sure. This sounds really interesting. I get involved in alumni stuff all the time.” Over the course of that coffee, which happened months later, he went, “Do you want to teach here?” And I was like, “Okay.” So I just kept saying yes to stuff that the universe was putting out there for me. But I feel like the universe put it out there because I was putting out a vibe first.
Bryan Wish:
Right.
Fotini Iconomopoulos:
I was putting out value, I was putting out great relationships, I was putting out investing in people, and then they invested right back. So, three years ago, Harper Collins ended up in my own inbox going, “Hey, knock knock. We have some mutual friends. We saw your video somewhere online and they gave us your email. We think you have a book in you.” And then my book was born. All of these things happened not because I chased them, but because I was just pursuing excellence, I was pursuing helping people. And that started to come back and I started saying yes to interesting opportunities. And I don’t regret a single one of them.
Bryan Wish:
Yeah. There’s a quote I heard growing up and it says, when you focus on the internal, the external takes care of itself. And that really still gives me chills when I hear it. But what I love about what you said was, I took the time to focus on becoming the best version of me, creating the most value for other people. And oh, the universe responded back. And it’s weird not to get too boo woo. But I’ve been reading about consciousness and spiritual stuff. And it’s like what you put out is what you get back. Good energy. And so, anyways, it seems like what you were doing for people reciprocated in a very beautiful way. And it’s admirable but also you’re bettering yourself, and things started to unfold naturally for you from speaking. I mean the teaching and the book. So very cool to see that progression.
Fotini Iconomopoulos:
Well, it’s interesting what you say about this self-awareness piece too. I was also really fortunate that I made a client friend who sent me to a training about a year before my moment happened. He sent me to this training and he said, “Fotini, you’re part of the team. You’re here with us all the time. You should go through this training I’ve sent my whole team to.” And it was at the Human Performance Institute down in Florida. It was called The Corporate Athlete. And it was meant to help you keep your head in the game. It was created originally for athletes, those NFL players, Olympians, and so on who need to be at peak performance. And then they realized, oh, well, business people also need to be at peak performance. Why should they be burning out?
Fotini Iconomopoulos:
And so they adapted it for folks like us who don’t necessarily get onto the track and field, but we are in cameras or we’re in boardrooms and things like that. And we still need to manage our energy. And because I went through that experience and I spent three days basically whittling down, what is my purpose, what is it that I enjoy doing every single day? And I was actually just looking at it last week. Many years later I was looking at what is my… Still my mission is the same. My mission is to build relationships and to empower people to achieve their goals. And so, because I knew that, over the course of the next year or before that moment happened, I was offered a promotion and I went, “No.” Within seconds, I knew I was like, “No, that’s not for me. That’s not going to make me want to get out of bed every day.”
Fotini Iconomopoulos:
So it was very easy to say no to the stuff that I didn’t like and that wasn’t serving me and very easy to say yes to the opportunities that would fuel me, because I’d become in tune with what is it that makes me get out of bed every day? What is it that makes me happy and that helps me to put better energy into the universe?
Bryan Wish:
Yeah.
Fotini Iconomopoulos:
Because if I said yes to something that didn’t serve that mission, it would just drain me of energy and I’d have nothing left to put out there in the universe. So, it does sound a little woo woo, but I do think that self-awareness thing is so important to be able to put your best self forward and attract what it is that you need to attract.
Bryan Wish:
Yeah. I mean, trust me, I’m glad you’re not an accountant either. Just to go back to what you said, I just had to say that. It’s interesting when we do the purpose work. I know exactly what you mean, because I think what you’re saying or what I’m hearing you say, I don’t want to put words in your mouth, is by doing the purpose work, you gave yourself a compass.
Fotini Iconomopoulos:
Yes.
Bryan Wish:
Or a North Star so that you could steer the boat in the direction that was aligned to who you were at your core and not put your energy in places, excuse me, that wouldn’t serve the world as well. So it’s neat that you maybe develop that self-awareness, let’s just say early, to go out and be on the path that was maybe more aligned.
Fotini Iconomopoulos:
And people thought I was insane by the way. When I turned down this one specific promotion, I had a mentor who said, “What? What are you talking about? This is the next logical step for you to become head of the Americas.” And I said, “Who the hell said I wanted to be a head of the Americas? That sounds like a really stressful job that won’t allow me to do the work that I love doing every day. Who wants to manage the admin and all that other stuff that comes along with it?”
Bryan Wish:
Yeah.
Fotini Iconomopoulos:
So, I had done the work. They didn’t know the work that I had done. And they had obviously very different values driving them than I did.
Bryan Wish:
Yeah. I mean, good for you, right? I think when we learn to say no, it’s a hard transition, but it’s a bridge we almost cross to do the things that are right for ourselves. So, as you started to say no more and you started to get more clear on the things that you should pursue beyond teaching and beyond the book, I mean, how have you been able to build your career and work with individuals in organizations at the [inaudible 00:28:16] of what you believe the most? I mean, what does that look like for you day in and day out today?
Fotini Iconomopoulos:
I mean, my job title, if I were to have one, technically it would be negotiation consultant. But I feel like I need to rebrand myself as confidence builder, because when I come into an organization, it’s not rocket science that I’m telling people. Even if you read my book, there’s no massive new idea. I’m just packaging it up in a way that is consumable for people, that is less daunting for a lot of folks, that breaks it down into step by step easy to follow recipes for success. And more often than not, there’s two big things that I have to focus on, because I could… We joke around with clients like, “Can’t we just put a bug in our ear and you tell us what to say when we go in there?” And I’m like, “That would be loads of fun for me.”
Fotini Iconomopoulos:
But if I did that, you’d probably still fall flat on your face if we didn’t do the work first, because if you don’t have the confidence, what comes out of your mouth is again going to be this garbled mess and people are going to pick up on that, and they’re going to go, “I’m not confident to follow what it is you’re telling me to do be because you don’t seem very confident.” And this happens at a subconscious level. Sometimes we don’t realize the vibes that we’re picking up on with people. And so, the first thing I do with people is get them in the mindset of, why wouldn’t you deserve this? Wouldn’t you treat somebody else this way? Wouldn’t you fight for somebody else in the same way? Why wouldn’t you fight for yourself? Or how do you get your head in the game for what is about to go down here? How do you make yourself resilient enough for this moment of stress that’s going to make you freak out for a second?
Fotini Iconomopoulos:
And I’m going to teach you how to control that freak out so that you can get through the rest of this recipe for success. So I have to work on the mindset stuff just as much as I do on the mechanics of when you say these words, here’s what people are hearing, and when you say these words, these are more influential and so on and so forth. But I just feel like you need the confidence first in order to execute the other stuff that I talk about.
Fotini Iconomopoulos:
And so, the book was titled, Say Less, Get More for reason because one is, yeah, sure, say fewer words. There’s a whole section on communication about the words to use. But the other is take that moment of pause to regain that consciousness, to regain that ability to go, “Hang on, I need to think this through and believe in myself and know that I prepared for this moment, and know that I can handle whatever comes my way.” That’s what I had in that moment that I described to you at the beginning of this conversation. And that’s what I want every single person to have in every conversation that they walk into.
Bryan Wish:
Yeah. No, I love what you are describing and how you should be rooted in confidence of the brain level, but helping people overcome these hard moments and map out the plan. Yeah, they might freak out, but giving them that roadmap to navigate it as you’ve done for yourself, right? Your credibility and your own story by what you did when you left your company, that process you use and I’m sure have evolved to help others is what allows you probably to do what you do so well.
Bryan Wish:
A question I have for you in that is… I was listening to a podcast this weekend on the treadmill and it really stuck with me. It talked about the heart sets the compass in a way where the mind creates the function and the plan to find on the road. And so, you talked about how your work is very mindset driven to help these people overcome these challenges. How much of it is emotionally driven. How much of it do you have to start maybe at a heart level before you maybe move to the mind? Or is there integration of both in your work? I’m just curious.
Fotini Iconomopoulos:
I mean, I feel like the two are intertwined.
Bryan Wish:
Totally.
Fotini Iconomopoulos:
I guess it all depends on how you define the heart level.
Bryan Wish:
Sure.
Fotini Iconomopoulos:
I mean, I feel like so many of my clients would benefit from therapy. I’m a huge advocate for therapy because so much of what I do… Some of the most touching messages that I get from folks in my inbox or years after they’ve been through a class with me or something like that, they’ve had these aha moments where they went, “I remember these words that you said,” or, “I remember this moment in class,” or, “I remember this thing that happened when you were around.” And it stayed with me, but sometimes it takes a longer time for it to click in until they see the light of what it is that I’m saying. And it really has a lot to do with them going, “I do deserve this. I would speak up for somebody else.” And it’s self-compassion I think that leads to the mindset of getting what you want.
Fotini Iconomopoulos:
And I’ve done a lot of reading about psychology and behavior and why we do the things that we do. And one of the most valuable skills that I tell people that they need more than the listening skills and more than the ability to be articulate or any of those other things that we associate with great negotiators or great business people or those folks that we want to follow, those prolific folks is self-compassion. Because if you’re constantly beating yourself up, then it’s going to be really hard to go in there and succeed. If you are a perfectionist who is your own worst critic and you’re going in there with this person in your brain who’s been criticizing you nonstop, how are you going to convince somebody that you deserve whatever it is that you’re asking for? Whether it’s love, money, affection, respect, whatever that thing is. So I do think that there’s a link between the heart and the mind. And I would call that self-compassion, is that bridge between those two.
Bryan Wish:
Yeah. I love that. And I love it only because of some work I’ve been doing recently with someone. It’s originally wrote down as you were talking, they said it’s self-compassion not self-esteem that leads to self-love. And I think what you’re saying validates that, or I’m imposing that it does. But I love what you’re saying there. And there’s a thread line I think in some of the things you’re saying as well, and saying you’re helping the individuals you work with really know how to value themselves so they can get the thing that they want. So, when it comes to valuing yourself and maybe getting more that you deserve, what’s that journey or evolution with a client look like for you? Or any stories you want to share that maybe speak to you in the moment?
Fotini Iconomopoulos:
So, I mean, even at a company level, I mean, I help. My first let’s call it job in this space was to be hired by large organizations, Fortune 50 type companies who went, “Hey, we have billions on the line with large global retailer or big airline or whatever it is.” And so, when I go into an organization like that, and I can remember one that I worked with probably about a decade ago… And they gave me this massive brief before I went in. They were PowerPoint gurus. There’s a lot of former big four consultants who love putting PowerPoint presentations together. And so, I read all of these decks one after another outlining all of the dynamics that had happened for the last five years with this organization that they were about to negotiate with.
Fotini Iconomopoulos:
And I went, “Okay.” And so then I went in and had this meeting with them and they go, “Yeah. So we’re powerless in this thing.” I go, “Wait a second. Did I read the same? Did you prepare the same things that I just read about? You just gave me this whole long history. Your interpretation of it is that you’re powerless. Mine is that you have loads of power.” And they went, “Huh?” And we started talking about it and pulling it apart and because I gave them some new perspective to go, “You have way more power than you realize, but the problem is you’ve been behaving as though they have this power over you. And so when you’re behaving as though this other party has tons of power over you, what do you think they’re going to do? They’re going to keep pushing and pushing and pushing till they get their way, because it’s been working for all this time. So, what happens if you push back a little bit? What happens if you act like you deserve to be in the room with them?”
Fotini Iconomopoulos:
So it happens at a fundamental level. I can see it on Excel spreadsheets and I can see it in PowerPoint decks. And then I take that same mentality and I apply it to an individual who reaches out and says, “I’m too scared to negotiate for a higher salary. I’m too scared to ask my boss for a raise.” And I go, “Aren’t you the one that provided X, Y, and Z? Aren’t you the one that made it to the top of the resume pile?” Even when my MBA students would come see me during my office hours, it had nothing to do with my curriculum and everything to do with, “Hey, I have this job offer, what do I do? I’m too scared. They’re going to rescind the offer.” And I go, “Hang on a second. You are the one that they selected in front of 500 other people, right?” They go, “Yeah.” Why did they select you?
Fotini Iconomopoulos:
And I start reminding them of all the reasons why they are so good at what they do, or they stood out from the crowd or whatever. I said, “You need to believe this too. Otherwise, they’re going to start changing their minds.” But if you believe that and you are demonstrating to them that you have the value of going, “I want to make this a long term partnership with you. I want to make this a long term relationship. I’m not going to be here to get this on my resume and out the door tomorrow,” well, then they’re going to be invested and they’re going to want to make sure that they do right by you.
Fotini Iconomopoulos:
And the same was true when I go in at the corporate level. As soon as my clients in that big boardroom started to see things differently, they started to act a little differently. They started to get a different response from folks. And it happens in the micro level just as much when I’m dealing with these individuals. It’s that boost of confidence to go, “You looked at this from one perspective for a really long time. What if you looked at it from another perspective for a second? What if you looked at it through their eyes and realize that they’re giving you this time of day for a reason?” Because so many people go to me. Well, they’ll talk to me about global retailer or large company. And they go, “They act like they can get rid of us at any second.”
Fotini Iconomopoulos:
I said, “And yet they haven’t. And do you know how busy those folks are? You know how many meetings people request in their calendars every single day? But they’re talking to you for a reason. They’re carving out time for you in their calendar for a reason.” And time is our most precious commodity. People are burnt out. I would not be creating time for you if you were not important in my world. That’s what the other person is thinking. So what makes you important to them? And it’s the same whether I’m doing it in the boardroom or the same whether I’m doing it even over my Instagram to direct messages.
Bryan Wish:
Yeah.
Fotini Iconomopoulos:
It’s getting people to see this other perspective of you are valuable for a reason. Understand it and act like it. And then you can act on that information in a whatever that appropriate way is.
Bryan Wish:
Totally. And it is such a powerful shift, right? To go from a maybe passenger to a driver and realizing why you are in the driver’s seat. And you show up differently or more whole like you did, right?
Fotini Iconomopoulos:
Yeah.
Bryan Wish:
You said, I’m not going to be scared to lose this job, I’m going to walk away from it and drive my outcome based on what I deserve. And they’re at loss, maybe they felt it later. And the fact that you get to maybe create those shifts, I mean, I can only imagine. Must be incredibly rewarding.
Fotini Iconomopoulos:
Yeah. It’s a pretty amazing job to have to be able to get those kind of messages. And I included a lot of those stories in the book because I wanted other people to get a little taste of that and go, “Oh, that’s what’s possible? I can do that too.” It is extremely rewarding to be able to be in the position that I’m in to hear those stories on a regular basis. I can tell you, even the people who didn’t get the outcome that they wanted, they still will reach out to me and say, “Hey, that didn’t happen, but here’s what did. I ended up walking away from that and getting an even better deal with somebody else. And we went into business in a different direction because we saw some new value that we didn’t see before.”
Fotini Iconomopoulos:
I’ve never had anybody come back to me and tell me that I was terrible at what I did, or they wanted their money back or anything like that. Not go to wood. But there’s always really positive stories that come from it because of the work that you’re doing mentally. That makes you so much better at getting what you want, period.
Bryan Wish:
Yeah. No, I guess I’m just really happy for you and the changes that you get to make and what you hear back from the people that you said who maybe didn’t get this outcome but because of that made room for something even better, which is the irony of loss or not getting what you want is usually it does open the door for something better. So, speaking of the natural serendipitous nature of how things unfolded for you after you left that job, since you put your book out, I’m just curious maybe what things have come into your universe that you weren’t expecting that have been really rewarding or unexpected in the most beautiful way?
Fotini Iconomopoulos:
Oh, so many blessings. I don’t even know where to start. I mean, on a superficial level, it’s gotten the attention of national newspapers, and I have been now translated in Business Insider and CNBC and CNN articles in I think seven different languages all over the world. I’ve had people reaching out to me from parts of the universe I didn’t know would have even known my name a little while ago. So for me, yeah, it’s nice you to be able to say as quoted in or whatever.
Fotini Iconomopoulos:
But it’s even nicer to go, “I am reaching people that I’d never expected in a million years that I’d be able to reach.” I’m able to change lives on a scale that I didn’t think was possible. I went from a boardroom of eight people at a time to a classroom of MBA students of a maximum of 45 people, to an Instagram following of X number of people to now viewers all over the world who are seeing my content, who are picking up the book, who are listening to one little nugget, whether it was a top five article or a list of something that I was quoted in. And for them to be able to take that one little nugget and go, “Here’s the change that I created.”
Fotini Iconomopoulos:
Someone reached out to me right before Christmas from Greece going, “I want to interview you for another article because I saw your article in some Greek website.” I’m like, “I don’t remember doing an interview for a Greek website.” “Oh, it was translated from Business Insider or CNBC or something like that.” So, great. So now I’m actually doing an interview in Greek where now entire population of people who wouldn’t have been exposed to me before get to hear this and use this. And it’s pretty cool to be able to do that in a language too that I didn’t get to really exercise very much for this purpose. So, it’s been really neat to see it spread.
Fotini Iconomopoulos:
My goal in essence is to have Say Less, Get More become a movement, something that is not attached to me, but people say, “Oh, can I tell this person about your class? Can I tell this person about this thing I heard in your keynote?” I’m like, “Spread it like wildfire. Tell everybody who need to know. Help them and then they’re going to help another person and they’re going to help another. And it has nothing to do with me anymore.” But to be able to know that other people are changing other people’s lives too, it’s pretty cool.
Bryan Wish:
Yeah. I love it. Don’t take this the wrong way, but it’s like Anthony Bourdain with a little more purpose.
Fotini Iconomopoulos:
I love Anthony Bourdain.
Bryan Wish:
Oh, I watched Roadrunner over break or holidays. And I took away. I felt he traveled more endlessly yet he wanted to impact people globally. But then got to this crossroads. He didn’t really know if he was having an impact. And I thought that was a really powerful point in the documentary. You should watch it if you haven’t. But what I hear you saying is you started out thinking about what’s the impact I’m going to have first and focused on that internally and then externally. You’re seeing the impact spread globally. And that I just think it’s a cool place to… It’s got to be rewarding as you’ve discussed, right? To see people come out of the woodworks and share their impact with you. And yeah, I’m so happy for you.
Fotini Iconomopoulos:
Yeah. I mean, and I think one of the other cool things has happened is when I do speeches, I’ll mention some projects that I’ve done. And about three years ago, I did a project where it was a passion project. I did an empowerment camp for young girls. At the time, my niece was 11 years old and she was telling me about something that happened on a playground. And I went, “Okay.” And we talked about it and I went, “Oh, not everybody has an Aunt Fotini to talk about and give them this kind of motivation or whatever it was that we had in that moment.” And then how do you reach girls even at a younger age? Because obviously I have a soft spot for audiences full of women and for disadvantaged groups because social justice and equal pay and all those things are close to my heart.
Fotini Iconomopoulos:
But I see from the research that this starts at a really young age. And so I did this empowerment camp and I loved every second of it. And it was the most exhausting time and week of my life. And I talked about it in a few different audiences in New Jersey and California. And every time I did, somebody would come up to me and go, “How can I help? How can I do something with you? The next time you do something for young girls, how do I get involved?” And so over the course of the pandemic, somebody who was in my audience in California reached out and she goes, “Hey, remember when we met at that thing in California and you mentioned that empowerment thing? I’d love to do something with you now that it’s virtual and geography is not an issue.”
Fotini Iconomopoulos:
And we did something together over the course of the pandemic. We’re still working on how to replicate it and how to make it reach more people. Again, it’s going, “I feel like I had the opportunity to be a match that’s lighting other people.” And now she’s doing something to empower young women. And someone else is doing something. And we invited this MBA group from Berkeley to help us. And now they’re lit up about doing something. So it’s not me now. It’s going, “Okay.” Now the light just keeps going to other folks. And that has been really cool to watch.
Bryan Wish:
Yeah. It’s like you’re the lead candle that has a domino effect.
Fotini Iconomopoulos:
Yeah. But that candle doesn’t stand out anymore from the others.
Bryan Wish:
Right.
Fotini Iconomopoulos:
It disappears in a sea of light.
Bryan Wish:
Which is amazing.
Fotini Iconomopoulos:
Yeah.
Bryan Wish:
And he created that light to go so much behind you, because you’ve in a sense started a movement, and other people can now join in and carry it. So, that’s awesome. Sounds like it’s been a very fast couple years. You’ve really maybe exercised the pandemic in a way that has been extremely impactful to people around the world. Without having to hyperscript it, as you look at the next maybe five-ish years or ten-ish year, what are some of the things that maybe speak to you or you look at it and say it would be so great if I had an impact in this way, or I touched these people in this way? Does anything come to mind?
Fotini Iconomopoulos:
I feel like I want more of the personal stories in my life as opposed to the big companies. I’ll keep helping big companies and I’ll carve out time for training and stuff like that from time to time and keep my finger on the pulse of what’s going on. But one of the stories that sticks out to me is a former student. And I put her story in my book as well. A former student left an abusive relationship because of something that we talked about in class. And my class had nothing to do with that kind of stuff. It was about negotiation in life. And we talked a lot about work scenarios and so on. And she managed to take the parallel and go, “Oh, hang on. This is how it’s playing out in my life today. This is how the power dynamics are happening at home.”
Fotini Iconomopoulos:
And I was thrilled for her when she told me at the end of the semester. I didn’t know what was going on all semester. It was at the end of it it all unraveled. And it was an amazing story that it was life changing for her. And so, I’m happy to be helping those large companies make more profits and all that stuff. And it’s all very nice. And it’s a nice check the box exercise. But I want to find new ways to affect the individuals who wouldn’t have access to me in a boardroom. So, there’s plans to do online courses and stuff like that. But just more opportunities to help individuals for me is where I can see my mission flourishing.
Bryan Wish:
Yeah.
Fotini Iconomopoulos:
And the rewards coming in at an intrinsic level in huge levels.
Bryan Wish:
Yeah. Well, I think that’s a great thing to think about, right? Because it’s what will fill that cup up intrinsically, and I think in time you’ll find the way to monetize or make it functionally sustainable. It just might take a little more time to figure out how. I think the good news is you already know the work that’s required to make a change. And so, exciting part is ahead. And yeah, sounds like a much greater impact on many more lives. And yeah, it’s really cool to hear you share your journey. And it comes from such an inward place. So yeah, I’m excited for you.
Fotini Iconomopoulos:
Well, thank you. And I think that’s the key, is finding something sustainable. Because I can tell you, even though I have not traveled in the last year for work, I feel like I’m more burnt out I think than I have been in a really long time.
Bryan Wish:
Yeah.
Fotini Iconomopoulos:
So it’s just figuring out what is the right balance of energy to give to people and still protect oneself. And I think so many of us now because of the circumstances in the universe are trying to figure that out. And I think it’s going to be even more important for us to do it as we move forward and start to invite travel and start to invite live meetings and all of those things into the mix again.
Bryan Wish:
Right.
Fotini Iconomopoulos:
So it’s going to be an interesting one to carve out the path and make it a sustainable one. But it’s a challenge that I’m up for.
Bryan Wish:
Yeah. I love it. I hear you and I’m constantly tuning in and checking in on my body. It’s like I know when my brain is so cloudy and messy and it’s like if I go a step further, I’m just going to fall apart. And it’s like, “Okay, come back.” It’s constant tuning with the body. Anyways. It seems like you are thinking consciously about what’s ahead and how you’re going to navigate. Where can people find you, your work, ask you to speak, work with them, all the things? Where are we going?
Fotini Iconomopoulos:
So I’m everywhere.
Bryan Wish:
Everywhere.
Fotini Iconomopoulos:
I have all my social handles are chopped a little shorter to make me easier to find. So you can find me @fotiniicon on Instagram, on LinkedIn, on… I have a website, fortiniicon.com as well. Don’t judge it, because I haven’t spent much time on it. But all of the inquiries can come through those various outlets for all sorts of stuff, whether it’s corporate training, whether it’s speaking, book inquiries. The book is available everywhere as well, Amazon all the major retailers. So yeah, I’m everywhere.
Bryan Wish:
Great. Well this was a joy. I really appreciate you showing up and recording. And excited for you in the year ahead.
Fotini Iconomopoulos:
Well thank you so much. Thank you for inviting me. I’m thrilled to be a part of it.