Rich Diviney is the author of The Attributes: 25 Hidden Drivers of Optimal Performance.
During his twenty years as a Navy SEAL Officer, Rich was intimately involved in the world-renowned SEAL selection process, which whittles exceptional candidates down to a small cadre of the most elite optimal performers. But Diviney was often surprised by which recruits washed out and which succeeded. Someone could have all the right skills and still fail, while recruits he might have initially dismissed would prove to be top performers. The seemingly objective criteria weren’t telling him what he most needed to know:
Who could be part of the world’s most elite military unit?
Through years of observation, Diviney learned to identify a successful recruit’s core Attributes, the innate traits for how a person performs as an individual and as part of a team. That same methodology can be used by anyone in their personal or professional lives.
In his book, Rich shares the key Attributes for success– including cunning, adaptability, even narcissism–and defines them in fresh and surprising ways. Rich shows how these attributes can be applied to a team as readily as a person. Rich shows how understanding your own attributes and those of the people around you can fast-track optimal performance in all areas of your life.
In this episode, Rich and Bryan discuss:
- The traits we all have in common with each other regardless of performance level
- Playing to your strengths instead of conforming to an environment you may not thrive in
- How sometimes the direct path isn’t the best path
The show is shared on the following platforms:
Transcript:
Bryan Wish:
Rich, welcome to The One Way Show.
Rich Diviney:
Thank you, Bryan. It’s a pleasure to be here.
Bryan Wish:
Pleasure to have you here. Thanks to our mutual friend, Steven. So Rich, you’ve had a fascinating career and background, but I’m curious, where do you want to take us today? What’s the one way moment that you want to share?
Rich Diviney:
Yeah, it’s I think the best, most genuine place to go back to would be back in early high school when, I don’t how it came about, but my mom and dad who they were always avid readers. They turned myself and my brother onto some books about the subconscious mind and things like that and the power of the subconscious mind. And now, and so we began to read about this stuff and just get really fascinated with this idea that you can implant things into your subconscious mind and you’ll vector towards the directions.
And honestly, I’m not here to promote or even validate the efficacy of that. What I do know is that it began to really allow me to focus more on what I wanted, those goals. Begin to say, “Okay, this is where I want to go.” And whether or not it was at least in the beginning days repeating things over and over because I wanted to get into my subconscious head or whatever. I think that focus began to… I think that changed my trajectory in the sense that I began to learn how to focus on what I wanted and the outcomes, and then ask the right questions about how to get there.
Bryan Wish:
Fascinating. I mean, it’s great that your parents had such maybe expansive books on the bookshelves at a younger age or formative age during your life.
Curious. I mean, you don’t hear that too often. Parents just expose their children to keepers psychology related topics earlier and maybe some do, but for you, it sounds like it was a focus. What were your parents like? What about them do you think maybe made them interested in that material or why they may have had those books on the bookshelves growing up?
Rich Diviney:
I don’t know. In fact, knowing them, they don’t really… It’s not like they kept that interest. I mean, they’re not into that stuff and nor do I think they were. And I certainly don’t think they are now. I don’t know.
I think my parents have always been open-minded. And again, they were readers, so they both loved reading and we’d always as kids read books. And I know that’s a little bit less common because we just don’t. We have the technologies, so kids aren’t doing as much reading. And I don’t judge that in any way. I think the kids today are developing in a whole different way.
But I think they had, whether it was a conscious effort or simply an unconscious consequence. And I mean, consequence in a good way, they were all about throwing things in front of our windshield and seeing what we liked.
And they were never forceful in what they wanted us to do, what we should be, what we should become. They were just like, “Hey, just figure it out and see what you like.” And to the extent that they could they did that. They threw a bunch of stuff in front of our windshield and let us figure it out.
And I think even back then, we, I had a twin brother, my little brother, my older sister, we were outside a lot. And so there was time where we could just talk to each other and play.
And then I always kind of count this idea. Because we didn’t have electronics the way they’re proliferated now we used to go on very long car drives, car trips I should say, because dad wasn’t going to pay for a family of six to go on an airline somewhere. So we’d drive to our vacations.
And back then we didn’t have Walkmans. I mean, we didn’t even have Walkmans let alone cell phones and things like that or movies in the car. And so I spent a lot of time staring out the window and daydreaming and thinking about things. And I think I just developed a habit of thinking and a habit of introspection.
And I think if there’s one thing I would love to see today’s generation and even my kids… And again, I’m like my dad. I don’t force anything on them, but if there’s one thing I think could help is if all of us put down the distractions once in a while and just sat in our own heads for periods of time to just answer questions, think about things, ruminate, visualize, daydream. I just think that’s a good thing to do.
Bryan Wish:
Yeah. Wow. And before I expand on what you just said, how old were you during this when you started noticing?
Rich Diviney:
Oh, I think, I mean, from the time I was probably seven or eight years old, I can remember doing that type of stuff, so yeah.
Bryan Wish:
Interesting. Yeah, I think it’s very untraditional, but for parents… It seems like your parents were pretty grounded in the idea of letting you become the person that you were supposed to become versus forcing that, “Hey, he should be this,” because they desired that for you.
Rich Diviney:
Right.
Bryan Wish:
Which sounds like it enabled you, right? That exploration and providing you with opportunities to learn and let your mind take you where you’re supposed to. So really interesting.
And back to your, kind of, you said you found the books on the subconscious and being more of the interesting set. When you think back to when you started biting into that material, what do you think it was about those books for you that… It’s obviously related to some of the work you do in ways today, but what do you think about then when you were going to that material spoke to you and made you curious in what questions that it made you start making you ask about life?
Rich Diviney:
Yeah. I mean, I don’t know if I was asking questions about life, but I will say that I think it was the normal kind of advertisements and kind of tantalizing idea that you could manifest what doesn’t exist through even just subliminal. There was a whole subliminal thing going on back then in terms of listen to these waves and there’s subliminal message in the back that are positive and things like that.
And again, I don’t know if that works. I’m not a neuroscientist. And I think there’s tons of studies that should and maybe could be done. But I think just that idea, whether or not it works, I think that idea of at least thinking about some audacious goals that you may not have thought of before, because I think once you… Even if the pathway is not necessarily verified or efficacious, I think just the ability to understand and focus on something is the first step.
I mean the ability to say, “I want to do this,” or “I want to become this.” And whether or not it’s a audacious almost out of reach goal, I think that alone is important enough for anyone to take the first step, because if you’re serious about it, then you begin to find ways. And I think that’s important.
So I think that really was what started my trajectory on, hey, I’m going to focus on what I want to become and what I want to be, and I’m not going to let go of it. And I’ll put pictures around my room and look at it and dream about it and visualize myself doing it. And I think all of it helps.
Bryan Wish:
Totally. Well, I really can appreciate what you said just with having a performance background, to a degree doing it growing up. But you said that those books growing up allowed you to think and focus on a couple things, ask the right questions about, how do I achieve those outcomes? Which ties exactly into performance and human performance.
So we’ve had on our first chat, which I really enjoyed. You shared more of a circuitous path towards getting to the performance side, but I would love for you to maybe share a little bit about your journey to getting to the work that you’re doing today and what led up to it.
Rich Diviney:
Yeah. Well, so again, as a kid, one of the first things my brother and I decided we wanted to do was we wanted to fly jets for the Navy and that was early on. This was like pre Top Gun. Top Gun only made us want to do it more. So in that pursuit, we found ourselves angling towards schools that could provide us the ability to get to the Navy and fly.
And of course we also were always kind of looking at and thinking and attuned into military type stuff. And it was after the first Gulf war, which is the 1990 that I happened upon an article that was about special operations forces and learned about the Navy SEALs and said, “Man, that seems pretty cool. Maybe I should do that.”
And ultimately decided to do that, which brought me to SEAL training in the mid nineties and then through SEAK training and into the SEAL teams. And of course 9/11 happened and the world became very dynamic and kinetic. And we ended up going to war and doing the things we had trained to do. B.
But I think going through something like Seal training as a kid who grew up in Connecticut and wasn’t that athletic and really, at least in my opinion of myself, didn’t have much to offer in that vein, but be able to get through, to make it through seal training where 90% of the other guys didn’t and a lot of the guys that quit were way more fit than I and way more capable seemingly than I, that was my first.
And again, I think one of the things that my parents did and through the reading I did, it caused me to start to develop a habit of asking questions and interrogating and being a little bit of a skeptic, but in a good way. Asking the why and the what and how questions so we kind of understand things.
And certainly coming out of SEAL training and looking around at the guys who I was graduating with, I said to myself, how the heck did I get here? I mean, what is it that got me? And I think ironically and in a funny way, a lot of the guys felt the same way. How did I make it here? This is insane. This is cool. But how did I make it here?
And so I think that type of introspection began a journey for me into performance. And it really began to be even more empowered when about a decade into my career when I took over training for a very specialized SEAL command. So it wasn’t even the basic SEAL training. This was a really specialized, intense SEAL training and assessment process. And it was now my job to explain why guys were making it and why guys weren’t making it.
And that’s really what allowed me to dive deeper into performance. And what is performance? Where does it come from? That’s where I began to think about attributes and skills. That’s where I began to think about this idea of elemental human performance. Who are we at our most raw?
Because again, we’ve always heard it’s really, it’s the real us that shows up when times are really tough. The real us shows up at our most raw. So I began to think about, okay, what is that? Who is the real us? What is our most raw? What is that behavior? What does it come from? And that got me into this attributes stuff.
And of course, getting out of the Navy, I entered into the leadership space first. It’s a very natural progression for a lot of military folks. But even as I was in the leadership space, I knew I didn’t want to stay there.
I wanted to go into this performance space and what causes people to do what they do. How do you get the best out of yourself? How do you define what the best is for yourself? How do you understand your own internal engine and how your own internal makeup? So you understand better how you show up to different situations, but especially situations that are very stressful, very uncertain, and very challenging.
Bryan Wish:
Yeah. And I just want to touch on what you said about a lot of people going in to leadership. You chose performance. I mean, you chose leadership and then performance. But going into that too really and questioning back to your days at the Seals and saying what allowed me to get through or who was I in my most raw form and kind of taking that performance lens, which I think is fascinating, kind of the deep level of questioning and awareness you had around that.
But let’s go back to, you said 90% of the people don’t make it through Seal training, but you were one of the 10% and then in a specialized way. I mean, feel free to answer with attributes from the book that you’ve listed, but who are you in your most raw form? And what attributes would you say led you to being one of the people in the 10% and in sustaining a successful career in the SEALs until you got out?
Rich Diviney:
Who am I in my most raw? That is the question, right? I think that’s the question. We should be asking ourselves our entire lives. And I don’t know if we’ll ever get the full answer, but we will certainly get clues once in a while.
And so the answer for me is I’m someone who, when I set a goal, I’m pretty committed to getting there. However, I’m also not as self-disciplined as other people. In other words, it’s hard for me to control and put myself into a routine.
So that’s disadvantageous in the sense that it’s hard to create structure around my pathway, but advantageous in the sense that I’m very fluid and adaptable in the conduct of any pursuit. And so as a result, I’m very open minded and I’m willing to take in ideas and thoughts.
Typically, I’m much more of a team player than I am an individual. I like working with other people. I’m not as thrilled about doing things by myself. So that’s kind of me.
I’m patient mostly when I’m at my most raw. I tend to be patient, which is advantageous because it allows you sometimes to assess and recognize in a better way. Disadvantageous is as it sometimes can lead to indecisiveness or look like indecisiveness. So I think those are some ways.
Ultimately I’m pretty gritty. And I know everybody says that. So everybody has grit. And I would say maybe in certain contexts, I’m not very gritty, but I think certainly buds and SEAL training show that I can take a licking if I need to.
And I don’t complain much and I’m not a complainer. I don’t like complaining. I don’t like worrying because I think it’s wasted energy. I like doing. I don’t sitting around. I like taking action. So I guess, that’s some of me at my most raw.
And I’m typically, I think at my most raw I’m fairly calm. Typically in stress and crisis, I tend to calm down versus get ramped up. So that is certainly advantageous in the SEAL world because getting ramped up and getting over excited will just cause you to what we call run to your death. So you don’t want to sprint to your death. You want to be able to take a step back and think and pause for a moment.
So, yeah, I think that’s part of the answer. The rest of the answer’s TBD.
Bryan Wish:
Well, always somewhere to go. Always evolve with you involved.
Rich Diviney:
Right.
Bryan Wish:
I mean, it’s super cool how you answered it. I watched a documentary this weekend on Mardy Fish who’s a tennis player.
Rich Diviney:
Okay.
Bryan Wish:
Best in the world in 2012, but it showed a lot of his performance anxiety. And so, well, to go back to you were saying in your most raw form, like being calm and patient under pressure or stressful environments. How cool for you to have the awareness and realize, hey, these were not only parts that helped me through the SEALS, but this is just part of who I’ve become or who I am today. So the transferability to all aspects of your life is pretty neat to think about.
You wrote a book about the attributes for individuals. From a performance perspective, ow did you come up and really dive into these attributes and how to define them and why? I mean, it’s fascinating to think about from a performance perspective.
Rich Diviney:
Yeah, that was a fun process. Ultimately, I mean, coming up with the attributes, I basically, I took the list that we had created when I did the same work on the Seal teams when we had to figure out, okay, what are the attributes we’re looking for this specific team? And we came up with about 36 of them. And so I started with those 36 when I was, was starting the project, the book project.
But then as I really analyzed them, what I recognized is that some of them weren’t in fact attributes, some of them were more skills based. And again, I blamed that on the fact that I just hadn’t matured my thought on the subject back when I did it, what 14, 12 years ago. So writing the book allowed me to mature my thinking on it, to whittle down the list to a much more manageable set and much more relatable, more ubiquitous in terms of these are the attributes required for overall kind of performance versus Seal, Navy Seal performance.
I mean, Navy seal performance is one thing, and that should not be the standard by which many of us measure ourselves. I shouldn’t. I mean, even me not even being a… I’m a SEAL anymore. I’m in the civilian world. I’m an author. I shouldn’t measure my performance next to Navy SEALS because I’m not a Navy SEAL anymore. I’m not. That’s not required.
So I had to ubiquitous the list. And then it was really about taking the attribute. And the first thing I did be quite honest with you is I looked at the definition of everyone and I looked up multiple definitions. Okay, what is the basic elemental definition of this term?
And then from there, I would say, “Okay, let me just think about and dive into some research on what this actually means and manifest how it shows up.” And so it was really cool to think about it. And then you I’d index that against my own performance. I did index that against other people’s performance and then begin to write about it. And so that project was actually a fun thing to do.
Some of them came a little bit more easily than others in terms of the way we could explain them. I mean, courage is is fairly straightforward. As is… What’s another? One open mindedness, right? Empathy. Those are fairly straightforward.
Others were a little bit more nuanced. Perseverance was more nuanced, conscientiousness, self-efficacy. Those are attributes that are made up of other attributes. As I dove in, I was like, “Well, this is an attribute, but actually it’s also, it’s an attribute that forms as a combination of other attributes.” That was interesting.
And then some of them were downright counterintuitive, right? I mean, cunning and narcissism, which I knew going into it. I was like, “What…” “It’s not all necessarily positive things that drive us, right, to do something?
Bryan Wish:
Sure.
Rich Diviney:
So I wanted to make sure that I was honoring the fact that it’s not all unicorns and rainbows when you’re going down, when you set a goal. And so those pejorative things actually helped me tell that story about ourselves. Because again, good and bad are all subjective. They’re all human manmade concepts. And they’re manmade and they’re subjective. One person’s good is another person’s bad and vice versa.
So we really had to almost… I needed to take some things that seemed a little bit negative or pejorative and neutralize them in a way that allowed us to look at them and allowed me to look at them from a performance aspect versus a judgment aspect. So that was a really cool process.
Bryan Wish:
Yeah. Well, it seems like you took a very holistic way of thinking about it and obviously neutralized certain components of the attributes so they could be applicable, like you said, from a performance perspective. And what I’m always curious about is when authors or people with big ideas, they go, they do the research and they really define in a very finite and beautiful way their body of work.
Rich Diviney:
Yeah.
Bryan Wish:
But from there it’s, okay, that work isn’t just in a book, right? That work is being used as a base to then go make an impact on society and on humans and, in your case, from a performance perspective, working with others and organizations. So tell me how your work in defining these attributes plays out in the impact that you have on those around you and what you do for your work day in and day out.
Rich Diviney:
Yeah. Well, I think the only word I’ll take out of there is finite. Because, at least when I write, I try my best not to be too finite in what I’m talking about, because I’m really… I think I love, well, I know I love, and I honor the scientific method. The scientific method is one of always questioning, always gauging, “Hey, this is what we know right now, but let’s keep on looking and see if something different comes up.” And so that’s how I like to write.
So I’m not necessarily… I’m trying not to… You’re almost trying to lay out some boundaries and some guidelines that are bendable and shapeable and maybe even contextual to give people some idea on how to think about this stuff.
And that’s the second part, right? My goal in writing the book was not to write another Navy Seal book. I mean, there’s a lot of Navy Seal books out there. And again, most of them are really good and have good stuff, but a lot of them are also about SEAL stuff and here’s how we did it in the Seals, and this is our experience. And they’re actually fun to read. And some of the stories are interesting, of course.
But I wanted to approach it from a different angle. I wanted to approach it from this angle of, “Hey, how are…” Not so much how Navy Seals are different from everybody else, but how are Navy Seals the same as everybody else? Because Navy SEALs are humans after all, right? So we’re all human. We just happened to find this niche inside of which we excelled and did things.
So I endeavored to write a book that was about not the SEALs, but more about the reader. Can the reader read this book and learn something about themselves? And I think that’s, for me, the way you write, the way you put something out in the world that stands the test of time, because it’s not about me. It’s about the reader.
My hope, my sincere hope is that this book and really anything I talk about goes out and helps people figure things out about themselves to the extent that they’re like, “Oh, I don’t even remember where I got the idea originally. I just I know I’m better because of it.”
Because the kernel of the idea is what takes seed in someone’s head and in someone’s heart and then they grow whatever they need to grow from it. So if you can spread some seeds, I think that’s the best way to do it versus state things definitively and say this is how it is. Because if you do that, it’s fun, but five years from that point it won’t make sense.
Bryan Wish:
Well, I appreciate you correcting me on the finite. I totally understand that it is probably written with more malleability than I made it out to be. And what I also love, you said the application to, we look to the SEALS as these godlike figures, I’m sure, they stand on the mountain, but what you’re saying is we’re normal people, too. We share a lot of commonalities with everyday humans. Let’s pull out those commonalities and create a much more level playing field and how we look at who these people are, because we all have something in common.
Rich Diviney:
Right. That’s exactly right. And we all have something in common and we all have something unique to give.
Again, I often use the automobile analogy because I love the movie Cars. And it’s not only because I’ve watched it with my kids a million times, but this idea that all of us are automobiles. Okay? Some of us are SUVs, some of us are Ferrari, and some of us are Jeeps. And there’s no judgment there because the Jeep can do things the Ferrari can’t do and the Ferrari can do things the Jeep can’t do.
The question is, when you lift your hood what are you? What engine are you working with? Because you may lift your hood and realize that you’re a Jeep that’s been trying to run on a Ferrari track or you’re a Ferrari that’s been trying to run on a Jeep track. And again, that’s okay too, because free will allows us to do that.
But if you are a Jeep, you may say, “Actually, no, this is why I have friction in my life. I want to go find a Jeep track to run on or I want to go or explore the rough terrain or outbound.” Or if you’re a Ferrari, like, “Hey, I need to go find a Ferrari track. That’s where I’ll be happiest.”
Or you might say, “Hey, I’m a Jeep and I’m really happy on a Ferrari track. I want to do this.” But then exactly one some of those things you need to work on to be a better Jeep running on the Ferrari track, right?
So I think the key to performance is first to understand your own engine. I mean, no NASCAR driver or Indy 500 car driver is going anywhere in terms of racing that vehicle if they don’t first understand the vehicle they’re racing. And it’s only then where you start learning the tweaks and tips.
And so there’s so many different tools and hacks and tricks and tips out there for people to do better, perform better, be faster, stronger, whatever, smarter. And there’s 10s of thousands of these things. And the problem is that they’re not one size fits all, right? It really depends on your engine as to what tip and trick work for you.
If you’re a Jeep, you may not want to put nitrous oxide packs on your engine. I mean that might not work out as a Jeep. And as a Ferrari, you might not want big tires. Who knows? I mean, so understanding yourself first then gives you the… It arms you with a much better ability to then separate the wheat from the chaff when it comes to performance tips and hacks and how to do better because now you know how to tweak your own engine to do better.
Bryan Wish:
Yeah. I mean, understanding your own engine, you got to lift the hood. I mean, also on the remark on your kids, to give them that, let’s just say, learning and lesson at that age, I mean, what a powerful… And I’m sure you’re a very interesting dad to them.
Rich Diviney:
Well, let me hang on that for a second because we’re looking at putting together kids’ content this year. And one of the things I’m really adamant about kids is again, we have to understand that our brains from the age of birth till about 22 our frontal lobes are still forming. We’re basically sponges. Okay? That’s why we learn the fastest. We’re the most plastic during those years.
It’s why so much of our formative years have forged our behavior and who we are today because that’s when the forging is going on. So that said, what you don’t want to do with kids is label them. And you don’t want take a kid and say, “Oh, based on this, you’re not very adaptable, but you’re really disciplined. But you don’t have much self [inaudible 00:30:14].” You don’t want to do that.
What you want do with kids is you want to teach them kind of, like I said at the beginning, teach them habits of introspection. That’s going to allow them to grow and do better and better every day and every year is if they understand how to look in the mirror and say, “Okay, let me look at myself and see how I’m doing and how I can do better,” and not judge it on what they think everybody else is thinking, okay? How can I look at myself and do better? How can I understand this system, this gift I’ve been given, and make it perform better based on what I know? Those are the habits we want to build into our kids, not labeling.
Bryan Wish:
So I love that you said that. And my own mother who created practices or tried to, I think opened myself up to that. And that was so valuable. But for you as a father, how are you working to… I think this question’s twofold. How are you creating habits of introspection for your kids to take that journey on their own? And then how are you as a father, maybe holding a mirror up to them and helping them see what they can’t see?
Rich Diviney:
Well, I’m going to caveat this entire answer by saying parenthood is really difficult. And the moment that you lose humility in parenting, something is going to bring it back to you. You’ll get slammed down. The moment you think your kids are great and they’re all that they’ll do something that makes you like, “Oh my God, I’m screwing this up.”
So that said, I mean, I think what I try to do the most is I try to help them learn how to ask better questions and ask questions. So giving the answer is sometimes the fastest way to get something to happen and the fastest way to get our kids to do something if we’re impatient. But oftentimes it’s better to say, what do you think about that? What are some ideas you have? You teach them to ask better questions. You teach them and to come up with the solutions themselves.
I know with my boys who are now teenagers, sometimes I have to help them calm down first so that they may ask better questions. If they’re too riled up, they’re not going to be able to ask effective questions. So calming, helping your kids calm.
And again, this does not apply to the ages of one and five. Okay? That’s a whole different… You’re not going to do calming drills with those ages. So you have to… It’s all relative. But there’s a certain point at which you need to help them understand that being calm, coming to a question and a problem with a little more air on your lungs and oxygen in your system is going to help them come up with some better solutions.
So I think it’s really about helping kids learn how to ask better questions and interrogate the world and be skeptical in a good way. Not conspiratorial. Conspiratorial is you’re actually generating and placing answers that have no basis of truth or evidence. Skeptical in a good way is I’m asking questions. Hey, why? How? Who? What? Where? And you’re seeking proof to then verify the answers you get versus accepting whatever is laid out for you on whatever news network you’re watching.
Bryan Wish:
Yeah.
Rich Diviney:
Well, I had to throw in a little political jab. It could go either way, depending on who’s listening.
Bryan Wish:
It could go either way, for sure.
Rich Diviney:
Yeah.
Bryan Wish:
It’s just from a parenting perspective, I mean, like you said, it’s a really hard job, but the fact that you’re bringing in, let’s just say these life skills, I would say, into kids to become more, let’s just say, adaptable or can figure things out on their own or create their own outcomes.
Rich Diviney:
Yeah. Well, I mean, that’s our job as parents. I mean, my dad once said, “Your job as a parent is to create a human being that can go live and survive on their own. It’s not to create a human being that lives in your basement and needs you every five minutes,” right? I mean, you need to.
The greatest hope for most parents, certainly mine, is that I create… You enable your kids to go out and be very productive, successful members of society. That’s cool. And so that’s really our job to, and so to the extent that we can do that, we have to do that.
Bryan Wish:
Totally. I’m looking over at the bookshelf that I just put up. I’m trying to find the book. I read a book in December. I think it was called New People Development. Does that sound right? I think that’s right.
Rich Diviney:
I haven’t heard of it, but go ahead, yeah.
Bryan Wish:
I forget. I need to find it. It’s somewhere over there. But it’s all about like, similar to you, what you just said about creating that environment to raise kids and let them be able to go fully into the world on their own. And that you’re constantly developing a human and it’s a human development process.
And I think the process of human development and linked to performance is clearly very, very much aligned, but I’m looking at these are I’m growing, raising beings I’m cultivating to out in the world and being healthy as a parent to go do that.
Something that, and I might be speaking from personal experience, but I think it’d be great just because you’re more of an expert in this, is doing a lot of performance work from in high school to mid college and graduation I noticed that I became very functionally strong at creating outcomes for myself. And I knew how to put a process in place and tweak it and put the vision and stack systems. I mean, again, that’s probably the best thing that came out of it.
The thing that I reckon with is more on the emotional side because I got so fixed in my kind of thinking that I didn’t see things around me. Maybe this was just my personal experience.
But for you when you’re in this work, it’s like, how do you go about working with people where… You said you’re very open minded. But when you’re able to generate outcomes that you go see, how do you also create when you’re working with people that ability to not be so rigid and maybe be open-minded to new opportunities or new paths that they may have not explored before? Even if what their outcome they wanted, giving them that freedom and leeway to say, you can go off course too, what does it take to be able to do that and navigate that successfully?
Rich Diviney:
Yeah. What a great question. I think, well, so it depends on the person, of course. I mean, the person who is highly self disciplined really likes rigid outcomes for which they can kind of target and head directly to. And so if there’s someone like that, the idea would be to keep the goals probably a little bit more short term. And then at the accomplishment of every goal, then take a step back and ask, okay, what now? How does the environment look? Have what’s the next thing based on the new environment after reaching that wicket? So that’s one way.
Overall, I mean, I think rock climber. I kind of use the rock climber analogy on this because the rock climbers can teach us a lot. And that is the rock climber will look at the face of a cliff or ridge or whatever they’re climbing and from the ground look at that and just mentally map out a pathway up.
But that rock climber also knows the only way that rock climber’s going to accomplish anything is to start climbing. And during that climb, they are going to find inevitably that the original pathway that they mapped out is not exactly the pathway they have to go. They’re going to find new, better handholds and footholds along the way. And so they know that they’re going to have to adapt and change and move as the rock develops in front of them as they climb.
Now sometimes their next best handhold or foothold will be off to the right and down, which means they’re going to have to move down and away from their goal to get to the next position to get up to their goal. This is exactly how all of our long term audacious goals operate. Sometimes it will feel like we are moving away from our goal. But what we have to remember is that’s only because we’re probably just getting a better handhold or foothold to grab so that we can actually accomplish it.
This is the type of flexibility and adaptability that I think is the best to preach. And so what I say is you need to be resolute in the outcome but adaptable in your approach. And this is life. Life is never going to let you do something exactly the way you plan it.
Bryan Wish:
Well, I think it’s so scary for those people who are self-disciplined or higher performers to maybe sometimes go down and to the right, because it’s exploring new terrain that isn’t as predictable.
Rich Diviney:
Yeah.
Bryan Wish:
And so my question that I want to ask is you talked about, if you’re an NASCAR driver, you need to know what’s under the hood and what you’re driving. As a person you need to know if you’re a Jeeper or a Ferrari. My question to you is, is it okay over time, like do you advise at times for people to maybe change that operating system, that hood that’s maybe the engine that’s under the hood? I mean, is there a time for that?
Rich Diviney:
Gosh, I don’t know if you can. I don’t know if you can. I mean, think there’s a truism that we are who we are. But the good news is that as human beings, we are moldable, we’re adaptable, we’re plastic, which means we can add on and we can change and we can shift.
I’m not sure we can shift or I’m not sure we can change the engine completely. I don’t think. And I don’t think anybody would want to. I mean, I think that’s really being upset with who you are originally. I mean, so I’m not sure if we can change the engine completely, but I do think we can understand the engine to the extent that we can tweak it and you can make your Jeep engine better to run on aa NASCAR track if you want to.
So I think it’s about molding and tweaking. And I think the next question, if someone really is in a position where they to, they feel like they want to change really almost everything, I think that deserves a little bit more thought and kind of interrogation as to why. What’s causing that?
Okay. Perhaps the environment they’re in is not supporting really who they are. Maybe they need to change environments and find a new one. Who knows? Because environment, I mean, we as humans we’ll try to adapt. We will always try to adapt to the environment we’re placed into. I mean, that’s just how we are. But that doesn’t mean it’s going to bring out the best in us or it’s going to allow us to operate at our best. We might not be in the right environment.
Bryan Wish:
Right.
Rich Diviney:
So if you’re in a position where you’re really feeling like a large percentage of you needs to change, then I would offer, okay, well, what environment is actually forcing you to believe that? Because you may want to find a new one.
Bryan Wish:
And so, ask great questions and get the results.
Rich Diviney:
Yeah, that’s right.
Bryan Wish:
I love how we’re getting so philosophical here. It’s great.
So, Rich, you told me on the last call that you the book out and you’re really trying to build this business around the attributes. What does that look like for you? How are you taking this work and bringing into everyday world today with that?
Rich Diviney:
Yeah. Well, in a few different ways. It’s fun as we go. We’re actually just past the one year anniversary of book release, of book launch. So that’s-
Bryan Wish:
Congratulations.
Rich Diviney:
Thank you. That’s interesting. But as we’re entering into year two, that’s really the endeavor.
So first what we’re doing is I’ve gone and started working with a lot of companies who want to figure out the company core attributes. What are the attributes? What are the core attributes that we want to have everybody at this company have? What do those look like?
And then as you go position by position, what does each position look like from an attribute perspective? So kind of an attributes discovery process and a roadmap for position. So then how your team is doing, how people are doing, and you what you need to hire for. So that’s some of the work we’re doing.
We’re doing some experiential events. So basically physical events that allow people to explore different attributes. So we’re going to explore that this year.
We’re looking at creating some content for youth. So what are some ways we can introduce attributes type stuff to kids from the ages of say six all the way through college? And of course there’ll be differences in how those things are deployed to your six year old or your college kid or everybody in between. So that’s some exciting stuff.
And then we’re gotten calls from police departments, “Hey, how can we do this in the police department and figure out some attributes on selection and getting better, figure out the attributes we need and things like that?”
So I think it’s just like I almost just described in our last question. I did not in writing… When I wrote the book, I didn’t necessarily know where we were going or where we would go with it. So we have been really trying to adapt and evolve as the situation presented.
We’re on the climb. We’re climbing right now. And as we climb and as we look at the handholds and footholds… and again, I guess the only difference is we don’t know where the top is. I mean, what is the top? Who knows? That’s the only difference between us, I guess, and the rock climber. We’re just climbing. And we want to just get to help as many people as we can. So we’re going to take it every handhold and foothold as it comes.
Bryan Wish:
Yeah, maybe the more handhold and footholds you stumble upon, the more clear the top will become, if…
Rich Diviney:
Yeah, I would imagine it will be. Yeah. And again, maybe it’s not. Maybe there’s no top. I mean, Simon Sinek, who is a friend of mine, writes about the infinite game versus the finite game concept he kind of took and helped really articulate from James P. Carse.
And the finite game is a game that has rules, definable rules and boundaries, and has a beginning and an end. And it has competitors and it has a scoring system. And I mean, most sports or every sport is a finite game.
An infinite game, however, is it has no rules. It has no boundaries. It has no beginning or end. And really the objective is to… Whereas the finite, the objective is to win, to beat the other guy, the objective of the finite game is to or the infinite game is to just stay in the game, to keep playing.
And so what he talks about is life really is an infinite game, or it’s not a finite. And almost all of all endeavors that are an infinite game have within it some series of little finite games that you have to play to accomplish. But overall I think business is an infinite game. Life is an infinite game. Helping people is an infinite game. So yeah, it’s just let’s play the infinite game.
Bryan Wish:
Yeah. No, I remember him giving that talk. And I was sitting with his chief of staff Lela in the first row and it was just chilling. And I love the message. Love the why message. It’s I think a well said comment for this where we are in the conversation right now.
Rich Diviney:
One or two more questions. You’re in a path of work or a line of work that I mean in my wholehearted belief and experience can truly change people for the rest of their lives. And helping them develop habits that developed early enough can compound in a significant way over time. For you, where do you find the most fulfillment or joy within the work that you do?
Certainly it’s very fulfilling to have people tell me how much the work and the content has helped them and help them see things differently. They see things about themselves. So I really enjoy that piece.
I’m always someone who enjoys thinking about new ideas and exploring new ways of thinking about even old ideas, because I just like that process. So it’s real fulfilling for me to think through different concepts and topics and dive a little bit deeper and tear them apart a little bit and dissect them and figure out what makes them tick.
It’s almost like being a mechanic, but with ideas and your concept. I do like that. I like asking myself questions about some of these ideas and doing that diligence. So I think those two things have been what I’ve found most fulfilling.
Bryan Wish:
Yeah. That’s awesome. That’s the mechanic part too. You get to tinker around a car, yeah. Very, very, very fulfilling. And it’s just great to hear how you’re thinking about applying performance to individuals, but the business level as well because you get everyone thinking like that it could over time be very helpful.
Rich Diviney:
Yeah.
Bryan Wish:
And let’s just say the next 10, 15 years. I know it’s an infinite, let’s say in the infinite game mode here. You have aspirations to do kids content. I mean, if you could map out from a performance perspective, 10, 15 years out, where are you? Where’s Rich Diviney and why?
Rich Diviney:
Yeah. I mean, I certainly have other books that I’d like to write that are in line with human performance and elemental performance. So I think that’s certainly something I’d like to do.
I want to do that in the conduct of also building some businesses that are sustainable and help people. So the more people that we can reach and they can begin to again, create habits of introspection and start interrogating themselves a little bit in a healthy way. That would be phenomenal if that took off and were proliferated.
So I think 10, 15 years from now I’d want to have a couple more books under my belt and have some very successful endeavors that are getting the word out to people that are helping as many people as possible. And of course, obviously the home stuff, watch my kids grow up and they start their own families and maybe even help with what I’m doing. Be around family is also a huge piece and friends.
Bryan Wish:
Wow. Well, it seems like your values are in the right place, your aspirations of being a good family man and also you doing work that matters. And probably staying fit along the way with your SEALs background I’m sure
Rich Diviney:
As much as I can, yes.
Bryan Wish:
You can see great plants in the background, everyone. [inaudible 00:50:12] and really plants make a more empathetic spirit, so [inaudible 00:50:16].
Rich Diviney:
That’s what I’ve heard. That’s what I’ve heard.
Bryan Wish:
Yeah. Well, Rich, this has been a pleasure. Where can people find your book? Where can they find you? Where can they reach out to you?
Rich Diviney:
Yeah. I mean the best one stop shop is the website. So the Attributes.com. There you find the book or at least links to buy the book.
You can find the free assessment tool where you can take an assessment and figure out where you stand on the grid attributes, the mental acuity attributes and the drive attributes. And we’ve just been able to shorten those. So they’re actually, they’re faster that you take them. They’re Not as much time to take, which is cool. You can find those there.
You can find videos and blogs and things like that there. And then, there you can also find social media handles to get. I’m Rich. I’m on Instagram, LinkedIn and Twitter and Facebook and all that stuff. So all of it’s there, if you go to the Attributes.com.
Bryan Wish:
Awesome. Well, thank you for showing up, doing this with me today on a snowy day on Virginia Beach. It’s been fun and I really appreciate you making the time.
Rich Diviney:
Well, thank you, Brian. I’m grateful to Shed for introducing us. I look forward to many more conversations, so thank you.
Bryan Wish:
Hopefully. Sounds good.
Rich Diviney:
Yeah.
Bryan Wish:
All right. Bye.